Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

[Bill Williams]

Vixen - this is reminiscent of you posting a picture of the lower window (below Filomena's room) claiming that the window did not have security bars on it.

Yet the picture you posted, clearly showed bars covering it, a foothold for any climber who when standing there, is already shoulder height to the lower sill of Philomena's window. It's why the hobbyist climber in the video (above) said that the climb was easy.

Are we really arguing this? At this late date?

 

[Vixen]

Vixen - this is reminiscent of you posting a picture of the lower window (below Filomena's room) claiming that the window did not have security bars on it.

Yet the picture you posted, clearly showed bars covering it, a foothold for any climber who when standing there, is already shoulder height to the lower sill of Philomena's window. It's why the hobbyist climber in the video (above) said that the climb was easy.

Are we really arguing this? At this late date?

I won't go there, if you don't go there. Deal?



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[Numbers]

Occam's Razor tells you Guede was let in. He knew both Knox and Mez. He had visited the guys downstairs on at least two known occasions. The entrance to the guys' section was at the other side of the house and had a low roof terrace which for a would-be burglar - who values being as quiet as possible, so as not to disturb anyone - would be the easiest, quickest and most private route inside the house. Three guys: think of all the student technology lying around and all of them away for the weekend. Expensive skiing gear, etc.

According to your theory, Guede not only had six arms, by which to hold two different knives, pin down both Mez' arms to stop her from defending herself, but he also managed to scale a sheer twelve-foot wall in slip-slidey trainers in full view of oncoming traffic in the street, whilst also holding a small boulder. And left no forensic trace of himself at all in Filomena's room. Nor bits of mud or grass - from the terrain below the window - on the wall itself.

Of course he did.




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Your post falsely claims that "Occam's Razor tells you Guede was let in". Then the rest of your post employs numerous assumptions to support your (false) claim that Guede was let in - far more than the simple assumption that he climbed in using the grill on the lower window as a ladder. There is a video that shows how an amateur climber easily reached the upper window and perched on the outer window sill by doing that. The video demonstrates that anyone tall and limber enough and with sufficient upper body and arm strength (and only two arms required) could make that climb. That might leave out Mignini and some of the Italian police, but Guede, at the relevant time, seems capable based on his athletic background.

Perhaps one problem is that you may misunderstand what is meant by Occam's Razor. Here's a brief definition:

This philosophical razor advocates that when presented with competing hypotheses about the same prediction and both hypotheses have equal explanatory power, one should prefer the hypothesis that requires the fewest assumptions.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Your assumptions include that either Knox or Kercher or both were home when Guede entered, and that at least one of them allowed Guede entry through the door. However, we know that Knox was with Sollecito in his apartment at the relevant time, and it is unlikely that Kercher had returned from visiting her friends at that point. There is evidence that Kercher was attacked soon after she entered the cottage apartment.

The glass shard found penetrating the outside surface of the inner shutter shows that the window was broken from the outside. There had to have been considerable force and momentum exerted on the window pane glass to account for the embedded shard and the fragments of glass scattered in the room. The force and momentum of a rock, with some significant weight (mass) and significant velocity (speed of the rock directed toward the inside of the room) would be required to get the observed glass shard embedded and glass fragments scattered. It appears that the police and prosecutor did not have a professional expert in the fracture mechanics of glass analyze the crime scene, and relied on their own hunches and biases to come to false conclusions. There's considerable scientific and engineering effort that has been put into understanding how glass (and other materials) fracture on impact (or other loading)*.

Occam's razor does not allow one to substitute false assumptions for actual evidence.

* See, for example:

The Fractography and Crack Patterns of Broken Glass - Journal of Failure Analysis and Prevention

The topographical features which appear on the fracture surfaces of broken glass objects and the resulting crack patterns which develop are Nature’s documentation of the fracture event. They are considered after a brief discussion of glass strength. Strength is central to the fracture surface...

link.springer.com

Quantitative Fractographic Analysis of Fracture Origins in Glass

The intention of this chapter is to identify the sources of failure in glass, prescribe the analysis techniques available and suggest ways of improving the strength of glass. Most of the chapter will be devoted to analyzing fracture surfaces and from them deducing...

link.springer.com

 

[gabeygoat]

Occam's Razor tells you Guede was let in. He knew both Knox and Mez. He had visited the guys downstairs on at least two known occasions. The entrance to the guys' section was at the other side of the house and had a low roof terrace which for a would-be burglar - who values being as quiet as possible, so as not to disturb anyone - would be the easiest, quickest and most private route inside the house. Three guys: think of all the student technology lying around and all of them away for the weekend. Expensive skiing gear, etc.

According to your theory, Guede not only had six arms, by which to hold two different knives, pin down both Mez' arms to stop her from defending herself, but he also managed to scale a sheer twelve-foot wall in slip-slidey trainers in full view of oncoming traffic in the street, whilst also holding a small boulder. And left no forensic trace of himself at all in Filomena's room. Nor bits of mud or grass - from the terrain below the window - on the wall itself.

Of course he did.




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This is weird and bizarre.
Anyhow, I usually don't think of trainers as being slip-slidey. Quite the opposite.

 

[Stacyhs]

This is weird and bizarre.
Anyhow, I usually don't think of trainers as being slip-slidey. Quite the opposite.

The use of hyperbole to push a specific narrative is a common tactic used by some PGP. For example, RS is "knife-boy" and '"icy cold". He "strutted" into the Questura and then "whined" about his pocketknife being confiscated. Somehow, he "waved a butcher's cleaver around" in a still photo.

A rock that could be picked up with one hand as shown in two different videos is a "boulder" and every forensic expert, lawyer, judge, and witness that didn't support the guilt narrative is "bent, paid off, or incompetent."

It's an obvious tactic but still being used. I suppose they think it works on us that know them. It doesn't.

 

[Numbers]

The use of hyperbole to push a specific narrative is a common tactic used by some PGP. For example, RS is "knife-boy" and '"icy cold". He "strutted" into the Questura and then "whined" about his pocketknife being confiscated. Somehow, he "waved a butcher's cleaver around" in a still photo.

A rock that could be picked up with one hand as shown in two different videos is a "boulder" and every forensic expert, lawyer, judge, and witness that didn't support the guilt narrative is "bent, paid off, or incompetent."

It's an obvious tactic but still being used. I suppose they think it works on us that know them. It doesn't.

I suspect that the hyperbole is either a habit, intended for the PGP audience, or intended as an offensive emotional trigger to the PIP.

 

[Stacyhs]

Occam's Razor tells you Guede was let in.

False premise to start with.

He knew both Knox and Mez. He had visited the guys downstairs on at least two known occasions.

He didn't "know them"; he had met each briefly. Knox couldn't even remember his name. Meredith never mentioned him.

The entrance to the guys' section was at the other side of the house and had a low roof terrace which for a would-be burglar - who values being as quiet as possible, so as not to disturb anyone - would be the easiest, quickest and most private route inside the house.

That low roof terrace, like all the doors in the cottage, also had a door with safety bars and heavy exterior wooden shutters. See this photo taken from the police Nov. 3, 2007 video:


I've stood on the parking garage roof across the street and at the gate of the driveway and videotaped cars at night coming from both directions with their headlights on. The headlights did NOT illuminate Filomena's window and the terrace was actually more visible from the cars coming down the street from uphill.

Three guys: think of all the student technology lying around and all of them away for the weekend. Expensive skiing gear, etc.

These four, not 3, guys were so poor they had to share an apartment. What makes you think they had "student technology" or "expensive skiing gear, etc." lying around? Besides, there was no indication of any attempted break-in downstairs.

According to your theory, Guede not only had six arms, by which to hold two different knives, pin down both Mez' arms to stop her from defending herself, but he also managed to scale a sheer twelve-foot wall in slip-slidey trainers in full view of oncoming traffic in the street, whilst also holding a small boulder.

Nah, Guede managed to kill Kercher with only two arms as men around the world do every single day to women. Or do you want to claim that it takes at least 2 men to rape and murder a woman?
One knife was all that was needed and there is no evidence that two knives were used. The knife that left the bloody imprint on the bed was capable of making all the knife wounds.
Trainers' rubber soles are specifically made NOT to be "slip-slidey" but to grip. Which is why the climber in the video easily climbed the "sheer twelve-foot wall" and left no marks. And that "sheer" wall was actually very rough stone which made getting a foothold easy.
As I said above, FR'S window was not illuminated by headlights and was in the DARK. I've saw it with my own eyes.
He didn't have to hold a "small boulder" when he climbed up which has been explained to you multiple times. As Pasquali testified, the rock was thrown from the parking parapet ACROSS, not UP, to the window. When no one responded, he could then climb up and through the window.

And left no forensic trace of himself at all in Filomena's room.

If he were wearing gloves, as any burglar likely would when breaking a window on a cold night, why would he leave any DNA or fingerprints?

Nor bits of mud or grass - from the terrain below the window - on the wall itself.

Of course he did.

So? The climber on the video didn't leave any mud or grass on the wall, either.

 

[Stacyhs]

I suspect that the hyperbole is either a habit, intended for the PGP audience, or intended as an offensive emotional trigger to the PIP.

I just laugh at it because it's so obvious.

 

[Numbers]

I just laugh at it because it's so obvious.

I'm now going to worry about all the six-armed rapists/murders magically unleashed by the power of Vixen's post. Fortunately, the octo-police will round up all such miscreants.

 

[Stacyhs]

I'm now going to worry about all the six-armed rapists/murders magically unleashed by the power of Vixen's post. Fortunately, the octo-police will round up all such miscreants.

LOL! And I feel much safer now knowing that a fit, young athlete cannot climb a 12-13 foot stone wall when he's wearing slip-slidey soled trainers! Even with a grate that allows him to gain a few feet by just standing on it.

 

[Vixen]

This is weird and bizarre.
Anyhow, I usually don't think of trainers as being slip-slidey. Quite the opposite.

Heheh, I invite you to come and visit Finland when the top snow has turned to solid ice after a little intermittent rain, whilst wearing trainers. ('Yes, Dear Reader, it was I, slipping and sliding all over the place, until I had the sense to buy hiking boots with spikes.)

 

[Vixen]

LOL! And I feel much safer now knowing that a fit, young athlete cannot climb a 12-13 foot stone wall when he's wearing slip-slidey soled trainers! Even with a grate that allows him to gain a few feet by just standing on it.

You would also need to be able to hoist yourself up from shoulder height like an Olympic gymnast. The PIP guy who did the climb was an experienced rock climber! He had people ready to catch him if he fell. He wasn't faced with a whole lot of broken glass on the window sill, nor a small gap of sharp broken shards to ease himself through risking slicing his jugular vein plus he was in broad daylight. Nor did he have to find and hoist a small boulder weighing 5kg and smash it high above in first time shot!

 

[Vixen]

False premise to start with.

He didn't "know them"; he had met each briefly. Knox couldn't even remember his name. Meredith never mentioned him.

That low roof terrace, like all the doors in the cottage, also had a door with safety bars and heavy exterior wooden shutters. See this photo taken from the police Nov. 3, 2007 video:

View attachment 60125
I've stood on the parking garage roof across the street and at the gate of the driveway and videotaped cars at night coming from both directions with their headlights on. The headlights did NOT illuminate Filomena's window and the terrace was actually more visible from the cars coming down the street from uphill.

These four, not 3, guys were so poor they had to share an apartment. What makes you think they had "student technology" or "expensive skiing gear, etc." lying around? Besides, there was no indication of any attempted break-in downstairs.

Nah, Guede managed to kill Kercher with only two arms as men around the world do every single day to women. Or do you want to claim that it takes at least 2 men to rape and murder a woman?
One knife was all that was needed and there is no evidence that two knives were used. The knife that left the bloody imprint on the bed was capable of making all the knife wounds.
Trainers' rubber soles are specifically made NOT to be "slip-slidey" but to grip. Which is why the climber in the video easily climbed the "sheer twelve-foot wall" and left no marks. And that "sheer" wall was actually very rough stone which made getting a foothold easy.
As I said above, FR'S window was not illuminated by headlights and was in the DARK. I've saw it with my own eyes.
He didn't have to hold a "small boulder" when he climbed up which has been explained to you multiple times. As Pasquali testified, the rock was thrown from the parking parapet ACROSS, not UP, to the window. When no one responded, he could then climb up and through the window.


If he were wearing gloves, as any burglar likely would when breaking a window on a cold night, why would he leave any DNA or fingerprints?

So? The climber on the video didn't leave any mud or grass on the wall, either.

There hadn't been any overnight rain. Police after the murder didn''t find any disturbance on the terrain, despite the conditions at ground level being muddy and moist. (November!)

The police said it was in full view of oncoming traffic (or at least it is documented as so somewhere).

Heck, it was next to the car park, so obviously accessible from the road.



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[Jack by the hedge]

You would also need to be able to hoist yourself up from shoulder height like an Olympic gymnast.

Do you regard a shoulder high wall as dependable security against anyone but Olympic gymnasts?

Nor do I.

 

[Vixen]

Do you regard a shoulder high wall as dependable security against anyone but Olympic gymnasts?

Nor do I.

It wasn't a shoulder-high wall, it was a narrow window ledge with shuttered windows. If a climber's face is flat face against the wall, with feet perched on frame below and the shoulders are only level with the sill, as Bill Williams claims, then, where is the leverage to hoist yourself up? Remember, the climber brought in by the defence, had bars to grip onto, which were not in place at the time and nor would have had to grapple with dangerous bits of glass (and without leaving any smears of blood from minor cuts or skin scrapes).

Maybe you can post a Go-Pro video of yourself being able to do this..?

 

[Vixen]

I'm now going to worry about all the six-armed rapists/murders magically unleashed by the power of Vixen's post. Fortunately, the octo-police will round up all such miscreants.

You're the one claiming that Guede is this super capable spiderman being who managed to not leave any forensic evidence of himself in Filomena's room yet managed to leave plenty in the murder room, as well as his shoe prints in the hallway. A young woman attacked by an assailant with two different knives without any defence marks at all apart from a couple of minor ones had obviously had her arms inactivated and, in Mez' case, her arms were wrenched up behind her back (as the horrible bruising on Mez' shoulder and elbows show in the pathology report). And who is going to cover the body with a duvet except the person who stays behind to clean up, so as not to see the staring eyes of the deceased?

 

[Vixen]

Re the video on youtube, we don't see him jumping down nine feet (ouch!) over the car park rail - it cuts out very quickly, why?

A comment left by a viewer says:

"

@jeffreysmith4601​

9 years ago
Embarrassingly, someone else had to point this out to me: the video never shows the climber actually climbing up to the window. It shows him trying to pull himself up while his feet are slipping on the wall and then there's a gap and then the video resumes with the climber stepping onto the window sill. The gap makes it obvious that several different videos were spliced together, so we have no idea of whether the climber actually climbed up to the window in a single attempt (and if he had, there would be no reason to splice together several videos).What I did not need anyone to point out to me is that all the subsequent activity takes place without showing the climber's feet. We have no idea of what he is standing on when he "demonstrates" how it would be possible to climb up while the shutters are closed."

And Peter Quennell comments:

"

@peterquennellnyc​

5 years ago
1. Shame on Riccardo Panella for using the “new” bars, which were put there after the two break-ins in 2009. 2. Shame on Riccardo Panella for using special climbing boots totally unlike the sneakers Guede had on on the night. 3. Shame on Riccardo Panella for not showing us how many times he practiced the climb, and for not showing the entire climb in one take. 4. Shame on Riccardo Panella for starting with the shutters wide open when on the night they were stiff and forced almost fully closed. 5. Shame on Riccardo Panella for not trying to open the glass windows, jammed shut with the locked catch well away from the hole in the glass. 6. Shame on Riccardo Panella for not covering the windowsill with glass; he says he’d have to move the glass, not done on the break-in night. 7. Shame on Riccardo Panella for not ensuring the ground below was damp, and then checking the wall for any new marks. 8. Shame on Riccardo Panella for not showing he had left zero footprints in the soft ground below the window. 9. Shame on Riccardo Panella for not trying this at night when that area would be as bright as day and obvious to anyone on the street above. 10. Shame on Riccardo Panella for not trying the much easier way to break in, via the balcony around the corner - in the dark."

And one more abbreviated comment:

"

@thetooginator153​

"4 years ago
I’m the same height as Rudy Guede and I have experience rock climbing. Only a VERY experienced (and brave) rock climber would do that jump from the lower window to the upper window.No, it’s not impossible, but it would require either a LOT of skill or a LOT of practice. There was nothing to grab on to once the guy gets to the upper window except the shutters (which are on hinges, so, not a great choice). <snip>"




Video here:


In addition, an excellent comment by Harry Rag quoting from Supreme Court Judge, Chieffi's report (legal conclusion):

@mrharryrag​

5 years ago
"Judge Chieffi explained why it’s an indisputable fact that the break-in at the cottage was staged in that Supreme Court report.The conclusion that the crime had been simulated was based on a series of facts with a high level of probative value constituting a valid inferential basis, on the strength of which the first instance statement of reasons produced a logical dissertation (pages 35‐42) anchored in the facts that:"

(1) nothing (not even jewellery or the computer) was missing from Romanelli’s room, which was the focal point; (2) there was no evidence of climbing on the outside wall of the house over the distance of 3.5 meters from the ground to the window through which the phantom burglar supposedly entered, nor was there any trace of trampling on the grass on the ground underneath the window; (3) there were no traces of the blood of the climber on the window sill, which he would have had to grip among the glass shards in order to sneak inside the room; (4) the glass shards were found on the inside but not on the outside of the window, a sign that the rock was thrown with the outside shutters closed, forming a shield that prevented pieces of glass from spraying to the outside; (5) the shards were found in abundance on top of the clothes and objects ransacked by the alleged intruder, proving that this ransacking had occurred before the window was broken; (6) the sound of the rock, hypothetically thrown from the ground, had not startled the young English woman so as to make her call for help outside the house before being attacked (given the lapse of time between the throwing the stone and the climbing up the wall). (Judge Chieffi’s Supreme Court report, pages 63-64).Judge Chieffi also noted that the trail of Rudy Guede’s didn’t go into Filomena’s room because his bloody shoeprints led straight from Meredith’s room and out of the cottage....asserted that the bloody shoeprints of the aforementioned [Rudy Guede] indicated the path he took from the unfortunate Meredith’s room to the main door of the house without going into Romanelli’s room, given that ‐ as was previously stated ‐ the traces of blood of the victim mark the path taken by Guede without any deviation. (Judge Chieffi’s Supreme Court report, page 64)

I hope that clears it up.


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[Numbers]

You would also need to be able to hoist yourself up from shoulder height like an Olympic gymnast. The PIP guy who did the climb was an experienced rock climber! He had people ready to catch him if he fell. He wasn't faced with a whole lot of broken glass on the window sill, nor a small gap of sharp broken shards to ease himself through risking slicing his jugular vein plus he was in broad daylight. Nor did he have to find and hoist a small boulder weighing 5kg and smash it high above in first time shot!

The throw would have been made from the high parapet opposite the window and that side of the cottage, so there was no need to throw the rock upward.

The rock thrown through the window would have propelled glass shards and fragments generally in the direction of motion, that is, toward the room. If one is familiar with certain real actions in the real world, one would know that, for example, if a moving ball hits a stationary ball dead center and without spin (as in certain bowling games or pool/billiards), the moving ball imparts motion to the stationary ball in the direction the first ball was traveling (the direction may deviate at an angle to the moving ball's direction if the contact is off the line of centers or if the moving ball is spinning). Similarly, the glass impacted by the thrown rock will not simply fall on the sill, the fragments will fly toward the interior of the room until the forces of gravity and air resistance cause the fragments to fall. Depending on the properties of the window glass, there will be secondary fractures that grow from the impacted area that may lead to additional glass fragments detaching from the window that may fall near the window. Some of the fractured glass may remain attached to the window frame. The burglar (who presumably knows what he is doing) most likely will be wearing protective gloves, may be equipped with a glass cutter or small hammer, and will dislodge the glass remaining in the window frame to prevent injury to himself and allow entry by unlatching and opening the wooden frame of the window.

The amateur climber in the video easily descends from the parapet, holding onto its top surface during his descent to prevent falling. It climbing up to the upper window, the climber uses the top of the bottom window casement as a foot-hold so that he is not lifting himself only on the strength of his arms. The rough surface of the cottage wall also provides for the climber to use his feet for support.

 

[SpitfireIX]

You would also need to be able to hoist yourself up from shoulder height like an Olympic gymnast. The PIP guy who did the climb was an experienced rock climber! He had people ready to catch him if he fell. He wasn't faced with a whole lot of broken glass on the window sill, nor a small gap of sharp broken shards to ease himself through risking slicing his jugular vein plus he was in broad daylight. Nor did he have to find and hoist a small boulder weighing 5kg and smash it high above in first time shot!

Did you even watch the video?? First, taking one of your silly assertions from a previous post, at about the 0:45 mark, you can see the guy is wearing "slip-slidey trainers."

Second, they asked him if, in his opinion, one would need to be an experienced climber, and he said no, someone like Guede could have done it.

Third, no one was ready to catch him; the observers and the person recording were all standing well away from the window.

Finally, gloves and long sleeves would have reasonably protected Guede from any glass left on the sill, and he wouldn't have placed his neck on it.

 

[AnimalFriendly]

Heheh, I invite you to come and visit Finland when the top snow has turned to solid ice after a little intermittent rain, whilst wearing trainers.

Good thing Guede didn't have to contend with snow or ice, isn't it.