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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

I DEFINITELY view it as anti-trans. People attempt to dress it up. For sure.

,But I simply don't buy the argument that making it illegal for a trans person to use a woman's bathroom protects women. It might make some women feel more comfortable if such laws were made and enforced. But I don't buy for a second that women are more than a minuscule safer.

And I believe such laws are unlikely to stop trans people from using them,

It is not DECENT for a man to be in a woman's single-sex space. It is not PROPER. It is IMMODEST.

And if men decide that they will flout the law and transgress women's boundaries regardless, then neither are they.
 
ETA: I sincerely think you're overestimating the value of your training, and underestimating the value of your size and inherent strength.
I get the size and strength thing, and am acutely aware of it. I am further aware of stuff that is more important, like that from being in construction I easily 'take off the brakes' and dump all I have without hesitation. But trust me on this: I'm not a big muscular bruiser. My place on the ASPD scale takes me a hell of a lot farther than my biceps.
Look, I get where you're coming from - you want to encourage these females to fight for themselves, to learn how to defend themselves as much as they can. I'm all for it... although I'm rather more inclined to concealed carry than fisticuffs. I appreciate your intent, and I 100% support female self-defense classes.
All I want is for them to know what they are doing and have their best fighting chance.
But if you instill a sense of false confidence, you're doing them a disservice.
The way we do the classes is specifically catered not to do that, and that's why I let them hit me, and don't flinch if it is ineffective. We don't teach magical fail-safe techniques, because there are none. There's weak spots, and keeping your head enough to seize the opportunity when one presents itself.
It sucks, I can't express how much it sucks. Like, in a completely irrational way, I don't even like putting it into words - every time I type this out, I flinch, because I absolutely hate that it's true, and it borders on superstition how much I don't want to speak it into the universe.

But to actually *be* safe out in the world, your students need to know their limitations. Not hypothetical wishful one, but actual real limits. They need to know that size and strength are real and extremely meaningful.
Right, and that's the first thing we tell them: there are no 'moves'. There is survival, and assume you will.lose going hand to hand. Get mean, get it over with, and get out.
If you think you're 'too trained' to be a realistic example, ask some of your untrained male friends to take part. Seriously - all they have to do is pin the females down; all the females have to do is get away. And if you're worried that your female students would hold back because they don't want to hurt your male friend... keep them pinned until the fear sets in. It's a horrible thing, it will feel like a horrible thing to you and to them, and they'll be absolutely pissed off about it. But I genuinely believe that it's in their best interests to actually be pushed to their absolute limit, to be confronted by someone who is NOT playing nice and looking out for them, to be faced with the reality of male physicality and strength.
We've done so many times for many years. What's cool about grappling is that you can kinda sorta go full force (although you gotta not break joints). And yes, every single one of us goes up against not-kidding aggressive and resisting opponents. That's literally the point, to know what you can muscle your way out of and what you can't.
I get the feeling you think I'm cavalier about this - I'm not. I'm not a particularly physical person, and I have absolutely dog-◊◊◊◊ coordination. But I will fight with every ounce of my being if I have to. But I know, I mean I really truly know what I can't do, and that leads me to be aware of my surroundings and avoid being in situations where I'm that disadvantaged. It's not fair, it's not nice... but it's rock solid risk mitigation.
Ok. You just made me feel sick when you said no woman could stop any old man. You're stronger than you think.

But this really isn't the time or place, and this has gotten carried away. You shouldn't have to even be faced with additional unnecessary threats to worry about mitigating, at leat in the context of this thread.
 
I simply don't buy the argument that making it illegal for a trans person to use a woman's bathroom protects women.
IIRC the argument was that making it legal for women to report MALES in their spaces would make them collectively a bit safer.

Not sure how to test this hypothesis either way, though.
 
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It is not DECENT for a man to be in a woman's single-sex space. It is not PROPER. It is IMMODEST.

And if men decide that they will flout the law and transgress women's boundaries regardless, then neither are they.
Decency, modesty, propriety. That's why? Seriously, that's your argument? It's indecent for a human being to go into a private stall to relieve themselves? Or do you lift your skirt and show what's under it to everyone in the restroom before you go into the stall?
I'm guessing no.
When I go to a football game and urinate alongside other menin a big trough with running water. So I get feeling uncomfortable. But I still believe this is a tempest in a teapot. It isn't about protecting women. It's only affect will be to help right wing politicians who leverage fear.
 
When I go to a football game and urinate alongside other menin a big trough with running water. So I get feeling uncomfortable. But I still believe this is a tempest in a teapot. It isn't about protecting women. It's only affect will be to help right wing politicians who leverage fear.
Yep, but hey, at least you have found a hill for the Democrats to die on.
 
You know nothing, @acbytesla.

Not all of these trans identifying men committed their attacks on women in single sex spaces. Although some of them did. Rather a lot of names though.


Allowing these men to access women's single sex spaces is a good idea, why?
Do you think you're preventing it with laws? Does someone stand at the front of many or any public restroom asking to see your genitals?
 
Seriously: I am not at all saying they "shouldn't worry, just fight". EC was painting such a defeated outlook that I just wanted to let her know that there are things you can do. It's a sidebar, and conceded, this ain't the time or place to use it as an argument against legally removing the likelihood in the first place, which I prefer.
It's not a defeated outlook, it's a recognition of the real differences between males and females.
 
I DEFINITELY view it as anti-trans. People attempt to dress it up. For sure.

,But I simply don't buy the argument that making it illegal for a trans person to use a woman's bathroom protects women. It might make some women feel more comfortable if such laws were made and enforced. But I don't buy for a second that women are more than a minuscule safer.

And I believe such laws are unlikely to stop trans people from using them,
Correct me if I'm wrong... but you DO somehow buy the argument that giving some males access-as-a-right to female-only spaces protects those males from other males? You DO somehow buy the argument that males need protection from males... but females do not?
 
Ok, and that's what I was saying from early on. Define the sex and gender lines, like this UK ruling did, but put it on steroids and take the limitations and qualifiers away. Define, as a matter of law, that sex segregation is distinct from gender segregation.

Even though there appears to be no problems in my Garden State with trans access, the idea of self IDing teen boys walking into the girls showers terrifies me. There are reasonable lines, and I think they should get carved in stone, not sidestepped anymore. We've been playing hot potato with the definition of gender for too long, considering we make freaking laws about it.
100% agree.
 
Do you think you're preventing it with laws?
Do you think that laws that make robbery illegal prevent any robberies at all? Do you think laws against murder prevent any murders? Do you think laws against child labor prevent any children from being given jobs in manufacturing plants? It won't prevent all of them, but it *will* prevent at least some.

Now tackle it from the other direction. First off, be aware that I'm NOT making a comparison, I'm making an ILLUSTRATION OF CONCEPT. And it's chosen specifically because it really hammers home the dynamic at play.

We currently have laws that prevent adults from having sex with children. They don't prevent every single case of adults having sex with children, because at least some - possibly most - people don't want to break the law and don't want to risk being caught.

If we got rid of those laws, and we decriminalized adults having sex with children... do you think the number of instances would stay the same? Or do you think they would increase?
Does someone stand at the front of many or any public restroom asking to see your genitals?
This is dumb. It's annoyingly and shallowly dumb. Some few males can effectively pass as females. But the majority of males who have gone through male puberty to NOT pass, and we don't have to see their junk to be able to tell that they're males.

Eddie Izzard does not pass at all, no matter what skirt they wear, no matter how much makeup they have on. Nobody needs to see their genitals to know that they are male.

We're a sexually dimorphic species, and we're really, really, really good at telling which sex other post-pubescent humans are. For the love of reason, please stop pretending that people's sex is a massive unsolvable mystery. It's not, and you ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ know it.
 
@acbytesla Genuine serious question for you:

If females do not need or merit single sex spaces for the reason of modesty, or dignity, or safety... then why exactly do some males need access to spaces that exclude other males? For what reason do you think transgender identified males should be given a space that excludes males that are not transgender identified?
 
Dumb are the laws. Dumb is the hate. Dumb is the idea that any of this makes a better world.

Bathrooms are segregated by the people going into them. Women's bathrooms in particular allow for more privacy then Men's stalls. Creating laws doesn't prevent Trans individuals from going into Women's bathrooms. It just criminalizes a human biological function.
 
Creating laws doesn't prevent Trans individuals from going into Women's bathrooms.

The existence of single sex spaces means that women can raise the alarm if a male enters their space and behaves inappropriately with the reasonable expectation that staff - and anyone else within earshot - will come to their aid. It ensures that the sort of males who would like to do that (and I'm not referring to transwomen) know that they have a good chance of ending up being charged with indecent exposure if they do.

Create the laws the TRAs demand and the women will know that their reasonable expectation is now that the staff and the law will be on the misbehaving male's side, and if the women raise the alarm they are the ones likely to end up in court charged with hate crimes.

I'm not going to ask why you hate women because I know you don't. I don't hate transwomen, I have every sympathy for them, I just think it's unreasonable to demand that women sacrifice our safe spaces in order to spare their feelings. Women are done with always putting men's needs and feelings ahead of our own.
 
This post wasn't intended for you. It was kind of a joke that I thought Rolfe would pick up on.
Read the room, man.
But it should also be noted that Rolfe didn't address the merit of the YouTube video I posted, She just called them bullies. An ad hominem if I ever heard one.
Begging the question that the video has merit.

Did you watch it? What arguments or reasonings really connected for you? Did the video lead you to any conclusions? If so, what conclusions?

"Watch this video, see what you think" is something to say to a bored spouse on a Tuesday night.
 
Dumb are the laws. Dumb is the hate.
You're making the exact same arguments that male chauvinists made about women's liberation in the 1960s and 1970s "these women are just man-haters". I lived through that period... I may have been young, but not too young to understand what Germaine Greer and Elaine Morgan were arguing, nor was I unable to see and understand how arse-holes like Normal Mailer tried to pillory them.

Dumb is the idea that any of this makes a better world for men
FTFY.

Ask the women who have fought for this whether it has made it a better world for them.

Bathrooms are segregated by the people going into them.
Errm, what? Are you arguing Schrödinger's bathrooms now?

Women's bathrooms in particular allow for more privacy then Men's stalls. Creating laws doesn't prevent Trans individuals from going into Women's bathrooms. It just criminalizes a human biological function.
Oh Poppycock! Utter drivel. You really have no ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ idea do you?

Its not just about bathrooms, its about ALL sex-segregated spaces (unless you think refuges for battered women and woman rape victims ought to be a free-for-all for men as well?
 
Do you think you're preventing it with laws? Does someone stand at the front of many or any public restroom asking to see your genitals?

Why didn't I think of that! No more laws! They don't eliminate undesirable behaviour, people will do it anyway. Let's abandon all the laws and let people do anything they like. No more criminality!

For crying out loud, has there ever been a worse argument?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong... but you DO somehow buy the argument that giving some males access-as-a-right to female-only spaces protects those males from other males? You DO somehow buy the argument that males need protection from males... but females do not?

I don't think he's ever said that. His position just seems to be, I support the trans and they should be given anything they want.
 

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