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Merged Due process in the US

Hmmm . . .

Available data indicate ICE and CBP took enforcement actions against some U.S. citizens. For example, available ICE data indicate that ICE arrested 674, detained 121, and
removed 70 potential U.S. citizens from fiscal year 2015 through the second quarter of fiscal year 2020 (March 2020).

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) Enforcement Actions Against Potential U.S. Citizens from Fiscal Years 2015 through 2020 Quarter 2 (March 2020)
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Ooops!!

ETA: Surprised this info is still up on the GAO website.
 
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JayUtah said:
And you’re wrong about what is. You’re trying to dress up your suppositions as fact. Your unwillingness to face your obvious prejudice doesn’t create the gradation of entitlement you imagine.
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You're wrong.

I as a citizen have many more avenues for Due Process than someone here on a tourist/work/travel visa, or someone who has no Visa at all.

But yes, ALL persons in the USA, regardless of their legal circumstances, have some level of Due Process.
 
Resume said:
Hmmm . . .



Ooops!!

ETA: Surprised this info is still up on the GOA website.
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ICE officers are, to the extent feasible, to interview individuals in the custody of another law enforcement agency to aid in assessing the individuals' potential citizenship prior to issuing detainers. Available ICE data indicate ICE issued detainers for at least 895 potential U.S. citizens from fiscal year 2015 through the second quarter of 2020 and cancelled about 74 percent of those detainers.


Well I guess nobody is perfect. Not even Obama.
 
Hercules56 said:
Wrong again.
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No, in fact, he's absolutely right. You're arguing the same thing Vance is, with his "[t]o put it in concrete terms, imposing the death penalty on an American citizen requires more legal process than deporting an illegal alien to their country of origin" BS. Due process is an indivisible promise to every person for a right to seek redress, not a score that's a totted-up sum of "avenues" to get it. "More legal process" is not more (or more right to) due process.
 
Hercules56 said:
ICE officers are, to the extent feasible, to interview individuals in the custody of another law enforcement agency to aid in assessing the individuals' potential citizenship prior to issuing detainers. Available ICE data indicate ICE issued detainers for at least 895 potential U.S. citizens from fiscal year 2015 through the second quarter of 2020 and cancelled about 74 percent of those detainers.


Well I guess nobody is perfect. Not even Obama.
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Obama was an ICE agent? Who knew?
 
JayUtah said:
No. Due process doesn’t exist in “levels.”
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No, there is no Federal law about Due Process Level 1-5. :)

But in affect different people have different avenues of Due Process available to them when it comes to detention and deportation.
 
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Hercules56 said:
No, there is no Federal law about Due Process Level 1-5. :)

But in affect different people have different avenues of Due Process available to them when it comes to detention and deportation.
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No. You are referring to the different ways that process exists based on the circumstances of what the government alleges. That is irrespective of the person exercising his due process guarantee.
 
JayUtah said:
No. You are referring to the different ways that process exists based on the circumstances of what the government alleges. That is irrespective of the person exercising his due process guarantee.
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Do you acknowledge that if a tourist is detained by ICE, he cannot go to the US Attorney General or the local Attorney General, or a local judge and sue for help? Meanwhile a citizen can.

And if that tourist is deported, he cannot go to the local US Embassy and seek help, unlike an American.
 
Hercules56 said:
Do you acknowledge that if a tourist is detained by ICE, he cannot go to the US Attorney General or the local Attorney General, or a local judge and sue for help? Meanwhile a citizen can.

And if that tourist is deported, he cannot go to the local US Embassy and seek help, unlike an American.
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Red herring. Your error remains conflating the nature of the allegation with the nature of the person it’s made against. You’re trying to shoehorn the issue of jurisdiction into your previous insinuation that the character of the person affects entitlement to due process.

And yes, immigrants have access to Article III courts.
 
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JayUtah said:
Red herring. Your error remains conflating the nature of the allegation with the nature of the person it’s made against. You’re trying to shoehorn the issue of jurisdiction into your previous insinuation that the character of the person affects entitlement to due process.
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LOL

This has nothing to do with anyone's character.

This is about their legal status in the USA and the level of Due Process from American authorities he can reasonably expect.

Natural-born citizen= Due Process level 6

Naturalized Citizen= Due Process level 5

Permanent Resident= Due Process level 4

Tourist/Work/Education Visa= Due Process level 3

Tourist without a visa= Due Process level 2

Person in the USA illegally= Due Process level 1



Different levels of reasonable expectations of official assistance & appeals, but all can expect and deserve some level of Due Process.


EDIT: yes, I know!!!! These are not officially real. But in effect, they are a thing.
 
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Hercules56 said:
A non-citizen can be grabbed by ICE. ICE cannot grab a US citizen. State police and other authorities would step in if they tried such a thing. And if by some crazy chance a citizen was accidentally deported, the US State Department and embassy will have his back.
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It's worth making a note that -

Trump Administration Has Detained Citizens as Part of Mass Deportation Actions
A new report doesn’t include a definitive list, meaning there are likely many more examples of citizens being detained.

Also, that citizens had been "mistakenly" deported during the previous Trump Administration after being plucked off the streets and their requests for proper verification of their citizenship ignored - effectively stripped of possessions, currency, much of their ability to contact anyone, and very vulnerable to the dangers inherent in being penniless, IDless, and unable to speak the main language in a foreign land. At least one made it back... after quite the extended journey and eventually getting the chance to plead his case to someone who would actually listen and verify his status. There certainly should have been more hubbub about that, but the whirlwind of insanity that was that period of time made that kind of thing easy to miss.

Your claim likely does describe how things should function, ideally. Reality is not the same as ideals, though, especially when there's a lack of accountability.

Skeptical Greg said:
What reason would ICE have to be investigating the person we are discussing?
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This is not a direct response to what came before, but I feel like noting that at least one of the more recent deportees was taken after a conversation that pretty much came down to "This isn't the guy we're looking for." "Just grab him anyways." That kind of crap rather undermines any assumption that ICE actually needs a reason to investigate or that they did any actual investigation in whatever case.
 
Aridas said:
It's worth making a note that -

Trump Administration Has Detained Citizens as Part of Mass Deportation Actions
A new report doesn’t include a definitive list, meaning there are likely many more examples of citizens being detained.

Also, that citizens had been "mistakenly" deported during the previous Trump Administration after being plucked off the streets and their requests for proper verification of their citizenship ignored - effectively stripped of possessions, currency, much of their ability to contact anyone, and very vulnerable to the dangers inherent in being penniless, IDless, and unable to speak the main language in a foreign land. At least one made it back... after quite the extended journey and eventually getting the chance to plead his case to someone who would actually listen and verify his status. There certainly should have been more hubbub about that, but the whirlwind of insanity that was that period of time made that kind of thing easy to miss.

Your claim likely does describe how things should function, ideally. Reality is not the same as ideals, though, especially when there's a lack of accountability.



This is not a direct response to what came before, but I feel like noting that at least one of the more recent deportees was taken after a conversation that pretty much came down to "This isn't the guy we're looking for." "Just grab him anyways." That kind of crap rather undermines any assumption that ICE actually needs a reason to investigate or that they did any actual investigation in whatever case.
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Would love to see an example of a US citizen accidentally deported.

Im sure if this is true by some crazy chance, he came back to the USA very quickly.
 
Hercules56 said:
So judge wants to hold Trump in contempt for not turning around the two flights that were sent to El Salvador. He says he may recommend criminal charges.

#1. President cannot be charged with a crime.

#2. All the lower level staff who conspired can simply be pardoned by Trump.

This will go nowhere. Its up to the people and Congress to decide to act, or not.
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The judge didn't say he wants to hold Trump personally in contempt. If others are found to have broken the law and Trump chooses to pardon the crimes they committed for him, then that's on him.
 
Aridas said:
This is not a direct response to what came before, but I feel like noting that at least one of the more recent deportees was taken after a conversation that pretty much came down to "This isn't the guy we're looking for." "Just grab him anyways." That kind of crap rather undermines any assumption that ICE actually needs a reason to investigate or that they did any actual investigation in whatever case.
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I would really need more context to determine if I felt an ICE agent acted improperly in a particular situation.

With regard to what came before, has ICE been deporting people who are here legally but happen to be pro Palestinian?
 
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