Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Hercules56]

Serious question: why not? What's the problem?

I dont want them seeing my bait & tackle. And I dont feel like seeing their goodies while Im changing. I guess you are against sex-segregated bathrooms and changing rooms. Most people like them.

 

[Thermal]

It would be good if you could make yourself clear.

I have. At least three different posters from 'your side' have indicated that they totally got it. But I'll run it down again:

You say that no change in body or appearance is needed for a man to be a transwoman in your eyes. That's certainly an opinion you're entitled to, if all you mean by that is that you personally will think of that person as a woman, and use their preferred pronouns and so on.

Correct, with the caveat that she's a woman with an asterisk, as I've said. That asterisk comes up with fair frequency, and shouldn't be convenieinty forgotten.

However, you have also insisted that
in your world-view transwomen are women...

The bolded is important. My views are not yours.

with no caveats...

You seem to keep conveniently forgetting my oft repeated caveats.

and you have berated me for not accepting what you described as my people, or something like that, into women's spaces.

Again, the bolded. You are taking that way out of context. Allow me to refresh your memory:

What you are referring to was when I once said that (paraphrasing) 'what it looks like to us (those who share my view) is that you are discriminating against one of your own.' What I was saying is that if a transwoman is essentially a woman in every practical way (unless you are getting in their pants), why would you object? They might be one of the gals right along side of you in a menstrual malfunction, volunteering to do the dirty work of scubbing the garments in the sink to help out. That's how I think of transwomen- one of the gals, but with that asterisk that comes up when they disrobe. Disrobing is not an issue in a rest room (it comes up in a changing area but we weren't at that thorny sub-subject at that point).

My view that they are not women and so have no right to be in women's spaces was not one you appeared to be prepared to tolerate. If only I would agree with you that these men are really women, we wouldn't have a disagreement, you said.

Right. That highlights the perspective problem. It's the 'why' of your refusal to accept that I'm poking at.

I get that the XY thing is a deal breaker for you. I'm not totally clear on why, unless you plan to sleep with them. And it's the heart of the dispute. Saying 'they might be an opportunistic perv faking it' (like the WI Spa guy) is a legit concern, but you seem to back away from that, leaning on the dignity angle. I don't see why a transwoman would be an affront to your dignity.

So forgive me, but putting that all together it seemed quite plain to me that your proposal was that anyone who was a transwoman by your judgement (that is anyone who says he is, no alteration in presentation required) should be allowed in women's spaces.

No, and I've been quite clear on that. In Happy World, it would be fine. But we have practical concerns (that annoying asterisk) that cannot be ignored.

If that wasn't what you meant, I think you should spell it out, as a number of people have obviously reached the same conclusion.

No, just you and Herc. Everyone else on your own side in the current discussion got it.

 

[Thermal]

I dont want them seeing my bait & tackle. And I dont feel like seeing their goodies while Im changing. I guess you are against sex-segregated bathrooms and changing rooms. Most people like them.

You said in the 'men's room'. That's a place where there are toilet stalls and sinks and usually some urinals.

What are you doing in there? Stripping down in the middle of the room and twirling your dick around for the other guys? Not my lifestyle choice, but to each his own, I guess.

Eta: the Portland schools revamped their rest rooms, linked above. Private stalls, and sinks right out in the open. This totally freaks you out? Literally kids and adolescents as well as adults are fine with it.

 

[Hercules56]

You said in the 'men's room'. That's a place where there are toilet stalls and sinks and usually some urinals.

What are you doing in there? Stripping down in the middle of the room and twirling your dick around for the other guys? Not my lifestyle choice, but to each his own, I guess.

Mens room, mens locker room, mens changing room. I dont feel like seeing naked women there and i don't want them to see my naked. I like sex-segregation in those contexts. Most people agree with me.

 

[Thermal]

Mens room, mens locker room, mens changing room. I dont feel like seeing naked women there and i don't want them to see my naked. I like sex-segregation in those contexts. Most people agree with me.

We were talking about rest rooms, not changing areas, which is a different subject. Are those goalposts getting heavy?

If you insist on changing the subject, ok. Why are you totally into getting naked with men, but being naked around a woman is distasteful? For me, it's the other way around.

 

[Hercules56]

We were talking about rest rooms, not changing areas, which is a different subject. Are those goalposts getting heavy?

If you insist on changing the subject, ok. Why are you totally into getting naked with men, but being naked around a woman is distasteful? For me, it's the other way around.

Cuz in general men are not sexually attracted to other men, and I not to them. But also women feel more comfortable not having men stare at their boobs and chocha while their putting on or taking off their bathing suit. And I dont want naked little girls staring at me and I sure don't want to see them.

If you seek further understanding of why we have sex segregation in changing and locker rooms, consult a sociologist.

 

[Brainster]

I have. At least three different posters from 'your side' have indicated that they totally got it. But I'll run it down again:

Correct, with the caveat that she's a woman with an asterisk, as I've said. That asterisk comes up with fair frequency, and shouldn't be convenieinty forgotten.

What does the asterisk mean? What can a transwoman do to remove the asterisk?

 

[Thermal]

I have never done such a thing to you.

Accusing someone of pedophilia is pretty low, even if its just to make a point.

Oh, no, it's just that I don't comprehend words in the English language. You know how it is. Hell, you have been insisting on it.

Going back to our changing rooms: inexpensive partitions can give full privacy in any locker room, if modesty is a concern. As long as you are not a voyeur yourself, trying to get a peek at all those adult women just trying to get changed. For my part, I don't go out of my way to look at women getting changed any more than a guy. Its a maturity thing, as you said. So what's the problem?

Eta: I actually have been wondering exactly why we are so uptight about this lately. I'm not coming up with really good reasons, except that we are taught from a young age to be ashamed of incidental exposure.

Also, you said a couple posts ago that men aren't generally sexually attracted to other men. Oh, Herc, I've got some very surprising news for you...

 

[Thermal]

What does the asterisk mean? What can a transwoman do to remove the asterisk?

Means she is a woman, with caveats that will come up if you intend to get intimate or she needs certain medical treatments. Nothing really removes it.

 

[Hercules56]

Oh, no, it's just that I don't comprehend words in the English language. You know how it is. Hell, you have been insisting on it.

Going back to our changing rooms: inexpensive partitions can give full privacy in any locker room, if modesty is a concern. As long as you are not a voyeur yourself, trying to get a peek at all those adult women just trying to get changed. For my part, I don't go out of my way to look at women getting changed any more than a guy. Its a maturity thing, as you said. So what's the problem?

Eta: I actually have been wondering exactly why we are so uptight about this lately. I'm not coming up with really good reasons, except that we are taught from a young age to be ashamed of incidental exposure.

In order to make unisex changing rooms, we would need to spend money, A LOT of money, to retrofit every single changing and locker room on Earth. You gonna give us the money?

I have a better idea: Lets leave things as they are, with sex-segregated rooms, and not have to change anything. That way most people are happy.

And if we do things YOUR way, a lot of folks will say ◊◊◊◊ no, not gonna do it. What then? Put them all in jail for refusing to retrofit everything into unisex? Cease all federal funding?

 

[Pixel42]

What you are referring to was when I once said that (paraphrasing) 'what it looks like to us (those who share my view) is that you are discriminating against one of your own.' What I was saying is that if a transwoman is essentially a woman in every practical way (unless you are getting in their pants), why would you object?

Once again: in a society in which sex discrimination is illegal, and everyone is free to dress/present/behave however suits them, the only practical differences between men's and women's lives are due to their actual biological differences - menstruation, pregnancy, different hormones leading to behavioural differences, vulnerability to sexual harrassment and violence, etc. So transwomen, being biologically male, are "essentially a woman" in literally no practical way.

 

[Thermal]

In order to make unisex changing rooms, we would need to spend money, A LOT of money, to retrofit every single changing and locker room on Earth. You gonna give us the money?

You're making things up. Plastic privacy partitions are dirt cheap, and easy to maintain. If you are in some large facility that can afford changing rooms, it's chump change.

I have a better idea: Lets leave things as they are, with sex-segregated rooms, and not have to change anything. That way most people are happy.

Speaking for the planet again, are you? That's nice. So you are intent on being naked with the transwomen and gay men who share that space with you, and you want to insure that there is no privacy? That's for sure an interesting take.

Why is it important to you that the transwomen and gay men are able to be fully naked with you with no partitions?

And if we do things YOUR way, a lot of folks will say ◊◊◊◊ no, not gonna do it. What then? Put them all in jail for refusing to retrofit everything into unisex? Cease all federal funding?

The weirdos might, sure. Us normies will just shrug our shoulders and try not to run around out in the open twirling our dicks around like propellers. Sounds manageable.

Seriously, what got me thinking about the changing thing is that I have been a surfer for a long time. I stand right on a public street and change in and out of my wetsuits and street clothes with no issue. Female surfers are right along side me doing the same thing.

If we have no problem getting changed right on a goddamned street without getting lewd and indecent, why are you so challenged in an enclosed space with some cheap plastic partitions?

 

[Thermal]

Once again: in a society in which sex discrimination is illegal, and everyone is free to dress/present/behave however suits them, the only practical differences between men's and women's lives are due to their actual biological differences - menstruation, pregnancy, different hormones leading to behavioural differences, vulnerability to sexual harrassment and violence, etc. So transwomen, being biologically male, are "essentially a woman" in literally no practical way.

Once again, menstruation issues et al have nothing to do with a transwoman in the restroom with you. Aside from the thought in your head, she's just another occupant.

 

[Hercules56]

You're making things up. Plastic privacy partitions are dirt cheap, and easy to maintain. If you are in some large facility that can afford changing rooms, it's chump change.

Speaking for the planet again, are you? That's nice. So you are intent on being naked with the transwomen and gay men who share that space with you, and you want to insure that there is no privacy? That's for sure an interesting take.

Why is it important to you that the transwomen and gay men are able to be fully naked with you with no partitions?

The weirdos might, sure. Us normies will just shrug our shoulders and try not to run around out in the open twirling our dicks around like propellers. Sounds manageable.

Seriously, what got me thinking about the changing thing is that I have been a surfer for a long time. I stand right on a public street and change in and out of my wetsuits and street clothes with no issue. Female surfers are right along side me doing the same thing.

If we have no problem getting changed right on a goddamned street without getting lewd and indecent, why are you so challenged in an enclosed space with some cheap plastic partitions?

Be nice if you were a little more respectful of people who are not as open about being naked in front of everyone, like you are. Not everyone is as care free as you. Some of us actually like some privacy when it comes to sex identity. And calling people who disagree with you "abnormal" and "weirdos", is basically the same bigotry you seem to protest against transfolk. Ironic, huh?

 

[Thermal]

Be nice if you were a little more respectful of people who are not as open about being naked in front of everyone, like you are. Not everyone is as care free as you.

That reading comprehension thing coming up again? I just got done explaining in small, easy to understand words that you don't need to be naked in front of anybody, unless you deliberately insist on it. You know, like you insist on being communally naked with transwomen and gay men.

Some of us actually like some privacy when it comes to sex identity.

You are arguing rather heavily against that, remember? Cheap plastic partitions actually give you that privacy. You are dead set against it, preferring to be naked with the transwomen and gay men.

And calling people who disagree with you "abnormal", is basically the same bigotry you seem to protest against transfolk. Ironic, huh?

The weird hangup you have are not likely shared by most, despite you being the self declared Spokesperson of the World.

Most people, I would think, would be more comfortable with partitioned privacy than your same sex nude sharing experience.

 

[Brainster]

Means she is a woman, with caveats that will come up if you intend to get intimate or she needs certain medical treatments. Nothing really removes it.

She can play women's sports and if incarcerated, be sent to a women's prison? Recall, this hypothetical is about a biological man with no changes to his body or appearance. No snip-snip, no testosterone suppression and estrogen therapy.

 

[Thermal]

She can play women's sports and if incarcerated, be sent to a women's prison? Recall, this hypothetical is about a biological man with no changes to his body or appearance. No snip-snip, no testosterone suppression and estrogen therapy.

No, those are a couple more asterisk issues. Do I have to list them all, every time? I figured brevity considerations would allow me to not repeat so much.

 

[theprestige]

No, those are a couple more asterisk issues. Do I have to list them all, every time? I figured brevity considerations would allow me to not repeat so much.

I too am a fan of brevity.

Which is why I prefer to skip straight to the end of this line of reasoning: It's all asterisks. By the time you're done cataloging them all, you're got a man in every practical way, and a woman in whatever way is left.

 

[Thermal]

I too am a fan of brevity.

Which is why I prefer to skip straight to the end of this line of reasoning: It's all asterisks. By the time you're done cataloging them all, you're got a man in every practical way, and a woman in whatever way is left.

I get that, but see it the opposite way. In dealing with people, I am almost never interacting with their sexual physiology. YMMV.

In a doctor's office it often matters. Competative sports teams care. Prisons care. But in day to day interaction, what's in someone's pants doesn't even... arise, if you'll excuse the expression. Virtually every man and woman I interact with could be the opposite sex from how they appear, and I wouldn't know, nor would it make any difference.

 

[theprestige]

I get that, but see it the opposite way. In dealing with people, I am almost never interacting with their sexual physiology. YMMV.

In a doctor's office it often matters. Competative sports teams care. Prisons care. But in day to day interaction, what's in someone's pants doesn't even... arise, if you'll excuse the expression. Virtually every man and woman I interact with could be the opposite sex from how they appear, and I wouldn't know, nor would it make any difference.

Yes, exactly. In all these mundane interactions, womanhood is irrelevant. It has no practical application.

And in all the interactions where womanhood does matter, what actually matters is biological sex.

Maybe we're talking past each other. If you're looking for agreement that we should treat transwomen as women, except where sex matters, you have my enthusiastic agreement.

But there is a nuance. Treating transwomen as women in all your non-asterisk scenarios means treating them no different from men. In employment and housing, it's actually illegal. Gender expression has no practical application there, as a matter of law.