Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[jimbob]

Calm down the language or we'll have to put this on moderated status

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jimbob

 

[Thermal]

I know, I'm trying to keep up and not resurrect things from days ago. That said - that post was from 3:43 yesterday afternoon, and I responded at 9:36 am today. I think it's reasonable to allow me a chance to eat dinner, hang out with my spouse, sleep, and get some morning work done

Absolutely. Just maybe... you know... catch up before hitting the reply on earlier posts? It just takes a few minutes, which you are generally doing anyway. Read up to date first, then reply to open issues. It's picking at scabs if things have moved along and changed.

 

[Rolfe]

There are no actual transwomen in your view? They're either mentally ill or faking?

What is an "actual transwoman"? It all hinges on that definition.

There is no such thing as a female soul in a male body. You are your body. The brain has the same male genetics as the rest of the body and is bathed in the same male hormones as the rest of the body. Or maybe the stork or God or someone made a mistake when inserting the soul into the body? Don't be bloody ridiculous.

There is HSTS. Homosexual men who are so effeminate and desirous of taking the female role in sex that they try to become female as much as possible. Some gay men like these men, but some HSTS men try to snare straight men, which seldom ends well. They are the "transwomen" who tend to "pass" reasonably well, and since they have no particular desire to invade women's spaces for a sexual thrill, they don't cause much trouble. They really do "just want to pee". Blaire White is a good example. He says he uses women's bathrooms because he is usually clocked as female and it's the least problematic option, but he tries to be as unobtrusive as possible even so. He doesn't use women's changing rooms because he has a penis and believes that would be entirely inappropriate.

There is AGP. The sexual kink where a man gets off on imagining himself as a woman, which is usually progressive from pure sexual fantasy through stealing women's underware to masturbate in private to cross-dressing in private, to "coming out" as trans. The reclassification of this behaviour from shameful and creepy to stunning and brave seems to have accelerated that progression in a lot of men. There are the ones who like to be in the women's bathroom and listen to women pee and change tampons. The ones who raid the sanitary bin and put the bloody tampons inside their own pants. The ones who dress up in a full rubber woman-suit complete with a compartment for fake blood so they can pretend they have a period. The ones who pretend to be pregnant, or to have had a miscarriage, and join women's support groups. The ones who source medication to induce some sort of nipple secretion then announce they are breast-feeding. The ones who just want to sit at home in women's clothes, knitting, imagining they're some 1950s ideal of womanhood. All sorts of variations, and most have more than one. And AGP seems to be co-morbid with narcissistic personality disorder rather a lot of the time. These men are entitled and exhibit male pattern aggression when they don't get their way. They despise women, and hate them for being what they want to be but aren't.

There are men with other types of mental illness involving delusions, which sometimes incorporate the delusion of being the opposite sex. These cases are the most tragic I've come across, because the current practice of simply affirming this delusion prevents their condition from being properly treated, and if and when it is treated and the men recover, but having been castrated and had their penis inverted, this is a terrible situation. I know of at least one poor man who committed suicide.

I don't know if males really do get ROGD the way adolescent girls do. Some say nerdy, geeky boys can adopt a female identity to escape from the pressures of masculinity, but others say they don't do this unless there is some AGP underlying it all.

Are there any real fakers? Men with none of these conditions who simply see declaring that they're women as a free pass into the women's room to plant their cameras, or the women's changing room to indulge in voyeurism and expose themselves without penalty? To win sporting medals which they couldn't hope for in the men's events? To be housed in a women's prison with its much more relaxed régime and plenty of totty around 24/7 that can't get away? Maybe, but I'm not persuaded there are many. Most men who aren't AGP (or HSTS) view cross-dressing as shameful and creepy and aren't inclined to do it even for fun and profit. I've not come across any of the LARPing "athletes" who didn't appear to be genuinely AGP. Maybe some of the prison-onset gender dysphoria cases.

But that's what we're dealing with. What is an "actual transwoman" in that context?

 

[Emily's Cat]

@Thermal and @Mycroft I'd like to try approaching this topic from a different perspective. There's a lot of swirl, a lot of participants, and a lot of strong feelings involved. I think it's possible to step back from it some and move through it logically in a way that can avoid assumptions and attempted ESP by everyone involved.

Please bear with me - this will take more than a single post. In order to identify where views start to divide, and where the impacts start to drift, it's necessary to avoid lumping too much in here. Several of us have developed our views over the course of nearly a decade of discussion from all kinds of angles - you're coming in to a doctoral class while you're still in middle school

I want to start with something that might seem irrelevant, but is actually foundational.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Allowing that there are fuzzy edges, I will assert as axiomatic that:

• Most males have no desire to cause harm to females, either physically or by making females feel endangered.
• Many males have no desire to cause physical harm to females, but don't take action to avoid making females feel endangered.
• Some males are willing to cause physical harm to females and don't care if females feel endangered.

Do you agree that this is generally a true statement?

 

[Thermal]

Then his views change by the day, cuz yesterday he said the only transition necessary for a trans person to use womens facilities is between their ears.

Not continuing this, but: you innocently misunderstood. Everything a transperson needs is going on between their ears. They do not need to play dress up for you and your arbitrary standards of whether or not they 'pass'. I do not make your assumed connection that 'and therefore, they can walk into the ladies room'.

Your interpretation is demonstrating your own rather dramatic shortcoming of understanding what words mean.

 

[Thermal]

@Thermal and @Mycroft I'd like to try approaching this topic from a different perspective. There's a lot of swirl, a lot of participants, and a lot of strong feelings involved. I think it's possible to step back from it some and move through it logically in a way that can avoid assumptions and attempted ESP by everyone involved.

Please bear with me - this will take more than a single post. In order to identify where views start to divide, and where the impacts start to drift, it's necessary to avoid lumping too much in here. Several of us have developed our views over the course of nearly a decade of discussion from all kinds of angles - you're coming in to a doctoral class while you're still in middle school

I want to start with something that might seem irrelevant, but is actually foundational.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Allowing that there are fuzzy edges, I will assert as axiomatic that:

• Most males have no desire to cause harm to females, either physically or by making females feel endangered.
• Many males have no desire to cause physical harm to females, but don't take action to avoid making females feel endangered.
• Some males are willing to cause physical harm to females and don't care if females feel endangered.

Do you agree that this is generally a true statement?

EC, I know you are discussing this in good faith, but many here aren't. See the post above this one. We just got a red box, so Imma bounce.

 

[Rolfe]

I hear you, and I would prefer to allow completely single sex spaces too. That said, there's room for some pragmatism here.

Let's talk bathrooms along - leave prisons and showers and such out of it for the moment. Now we're back to chickens and foxes. I would certainly prefer to keep the chickens and foxes entirely separate, because to me it makes sense. On the other hand... the chickens simply aren't a risk to the foxes.

Relative to all of the various approaches that have been put forth over the years, this is one of the least objectionable ones that doesn't strictly enforce sex. It also allows for the uncomfortable reality that transgender identified females who take testosterone and have mastectomies have a significantly easier time passing as an unusually short male than the other way around. Having a beard goes a really, really long way in passing cursory visual assessments. So long as the TiF in question heads to a stall and follows male restroom courtesy of not staring at other dude's junk... I think there's a reasonable chance that many males wouldn't really notice.

I think a trans-identifying woman who actually passes well as a man (and this is a lot more doable than a man passing as a woman) and who didn't draw attention to herself in any way wouldn't cause trouble in the men's room because the men genuinely wouldn't realise. There are short men around, and as I understand that men simply go in, do their business and leave, looking neither to the right nor to the left, it's likely there would be no actual issue.

However, there are very silly girls who look like girls but want to assert their right to be men who are determined to go in there even though they don't even vaguely pass. I read something written by a young woman who had detransitioned saying that she regretted her behaviour because she was making men very embarrassed by invading their space.

Then there are the even more deluded ones who have had surgery so they can "stand up to pee", as is their dearest wish. We all know how likely that surgery is to work, but even when it sort of does, the resulting organ looks like a swollen sausage sewn between the legs. Imagine some woman pulling that out at a urinal.

I see no alternative but to forbidding the use of the wrong sex facilities by either sex. Anyone who thinks they pass well enough to deceive the occupants and get away with it, will get away with it. But the ability to challenge someone trying it on should be available to both sexes. Of course the availability of a third facility, a single-use unisex toilet with everything behind one lockable door, for the use of anyone who doesn't want to use the appropriate facility for their sex would be ideal, wherever possible. It would give the chancers even less of an excuse. But we all know that the really determined "I am a woman/man and I intend to do everything women/men do" cohort won't even use these if they're provided.

 

[Rolfe]

Not continuing this, but: you innocently misunderstood. Everything a transperson needs is going on between their ears. They do not need to play dress up for you and your arbitrary standards of whether or not they 'pass'. I do not make your assumed connection that 'and therefore, they can walk into the ladies room'.

Your interpretation is demonstrating your own rather dramatic shortcoming of understanding what words mean.

Your interpretation is demonstrating your own rather dramatic shortcoming as regards being able to distinguish between men who have something going on between their ears which you approve of as entitling them to enter and make free with all women's spaces, and those who are simply trying it on for fun and profit.

I mean, is there a test or something? There isn't, and what you are proposing is no different at all from self-ID.

 

[Emily's Cat]

EC, I know you are discussing this in good faith, but many here aren't. See the post above this one. We just got a red box, so Imma bounce.

@Thermal - alternatively, you could give a shot at discussing with just me and ignoring everyone else in the thread. You have no obligation to respond to every post that comes your way. I have confidence that you can keep your cool with me, at least

 

[Thermal]

@Thermal - alternatively, you could give a shot at discussing with just me and ignoring everyone else in the thread.

"Let's just sit here in the cesspool and ignore those trolls slinging feces nonstop and have ourselves a nice talk"? I admire your optimism

You have no obligation to respond to every post that comes your way.

I kinda do, by internal standards anyway.

I have confidence that you can keep your cool with me, at least

Certainly. You're not a bad faith poster, even in disagreement.

I can pretty much guess at where you're Socratically leading, but I'm game:

Yes, generally a true statement, with the caveat that the first is the overwhelming majority, likely well over 90%, and the other two very small. Also, I don't think males in general want to hurt females generically; it tends to be more personally focused, with exceptions of course.

 

[Hercules56]

Not continuing this, but: you innocently misunderstood. Everything a transperson needs is going on between their ears. They do not need to play dress up for you and your arbitrary standards of whether or not they 'pass'. I do not make your assumed connection that 'and therefore, they can walk into the ladies room'.

Your interpretation is demonstrating your own rather dramatic shortcoming of understanding what words mean.

So, I was right. You DO believe no minimum level of transition is required for a man to able to use female facilities, under the guise of being "transgender". All that matters is that in their head they are a woman. No medical transition? Fine. No social transition? Fine.

Luckily most Americans think your perspective on this is crap and we will not obey.

 

[Thermal]

@Emily's Cat : you catch the above? Start running a scorecard on good faith, honest, and intelligent postings versus... the rest.

 

[Hercules56]

@Emily'sCat : you catch the above? Start running a scorecard on good faith, honest, and intelligent postings versus... the rest.

Funny, cuz YOU keep saying that the only level of social/medical transition that a man should have to undergo in order to use female facilities, should be between their ears.

 

[Thermal]

Funny, cuz YOU keep saying that the only level of social/medical transition that a man should have to undergo in order to use female facilities, should be between their ears.

Think harder. Really grit your teeth. Cuz I lack the patience to explain it to you further.

 

[Hercules56]

Think harder. Really grit your teeth. Cuz I lack the patience to explain it to you further.

You've made your views on this issue CRYSTAL clear. No level of transition required. All that matters is whatz between your earz.

 

[Thermal]

You've made your views on this issue CRYSTAL clear. No level of transition required. All that matters is whatz between your earz.

Here was your question:

How do YOU define a transwoman? How much transition must be done?

Should female bathroom privileges only be for transwomen who have undergone complete physical, surgical, hormonal and social transition?

What about transwomen who have undergone NO medical or physical transition, but only dress as women and have long hair?

And here was my answer:

Any transition is between their ears. They have zero obligation to play dress up for you.

Eta: although I'd expect most do automatically, but there is no paper bag test I'm using on them.

I was responding to the first two questions, and the last, of your questions. Your middle question was a yes/no, and I responded with neither. It was a stupid question, so obviously ignored (although my response answered that too). At no point do I even mention bathroom access; again, it was a stupid question, given my repeated statements.

You now try to act as if I ignored the first and last questions, and was only responding to the stupid one, which since I DIDN'T respond with a y/n, you had dead zero reason to assume.

I can't make things clearer for you without violating the MA.

 

[theprestige]

Any transition is between their ears. They have zero obligation to play dress up for you.

You've ruled out fiat self-ID.

What are they obliged to do, to prove their sincerity to you?

 

[Thermal]

You've ruled out fiat self-ID.

What are they obliged to do, to prove their sincerity to you?

Nothing. That was bluntly the point.

Self ID, as you are using it, is a public pass. I don't think it is. They don't have to prove a damn thing to me by their presentation; I'll take their word for it. That doesn't give them an all-access pass to go anywhere.

I thought you and I were pretty straight on that point?

Eta: their sincerity is determined between their ears. Their dressing up for Herc's satisfaction has nothing to do with anything, and asking me if I'm stupid enough to require dress-up standards is insulting.

 

[theprestige]

Nothing. That was bluntly the point.

Self ID, as you are using it, is a public pass. I don't think it is. They don't have to prove a damn thing to me by their presentation; I'll take their word for it. That doesn't give them an all-access pass to go anywhere.

I thought you and I were pretty straight on that point?

I have always and only been talking about what qualifies as a trans pass in public policy.

I thought you were talking about the same thing.

If you don't think that self ID is an all access pass, then what do you think is the pass?

 

[Hercules56]

Nothing. That was bluntly the point.

Self ID, as you are using it, is a public pass. I don't think it is. They don't have to prove a damn thing to me by their presentation; I'll take their word for it. That doesn't give them an all-access pass to go anywhere.

I thought you and I were pretty straight on that point?

Eta: their sincerity is determined between their ears. Their dressing up for Herc's satisfaction has nothing to do with anything, and asking me if I'm stupid enough to require dress-up standards is insulting.

So according to YOU, a transgender woman can dress like the Marlboro man but should be allowed access to the ladies room. Because of wats between his ears.