Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

[Numbers]

I haven't always agreed with everything Numbers has written, but one cannot complain about his thoroughness.

This is EXACTLY the problem with the assumption that 'the break in was fake'. That assumption became hard-baked into Mignini's/the Police's way of thinking and their early theories -SIMPLY BECAUSE AT THAT TIME RUDY GUEDE WAS UNKNOWN TO THEM. Of the three people that they'd originally suspected/arrested, none of the three were deemed capable of breaking in through Filomena's second story bedroom window - as well as, their early theory was that Knox had let the three of them in, so no need for a break-in.

Ergo, it must have been faked, because none of the original three could manage a real one, so the cops thought.

I remember reading the papers as the days went on.... soon there was reported the possibility of a **fourth** assailant - of course, that was Guede once he'd become known, once the police had heard him say on a Skype call back to Perugia from Germany, that Amanda Knox - that she had not been involved. Repeat, Guede's earliest confession was that she'd not been involved - and he did not know that police were eavesdropping on the call.

Point being, once Guede was known to have done this, suddenly the evidence surrounding the break-in made sense. Instead of hitting reset - allowing the new available evidence to guide the investigation - the cops/Mignini simply substituted Guede for Lumumba. Yet, they stuck with the faked break-in, even though the simplest explanation was that Guede had done the deed through Filomena's window, as a subsequent TV demonstration showed.

Numbers post should be read and reread. Me, I don't really go with Steve Moore's 'police informant' theory.... as to why 'investigative amnesia' took hold. 'Investigative amnesia' was the way that the final acquitting court put it, as to why the investigation had been flawed.

In contrast, I have almost always agreed with everything that Bill Williams has written.

For example, I agree with almost everything in the post above. But as sometimes happens when I read a post, I have a quibble.

We know (I think) that Guede was returned to Perugia following his arrest in Milan by the request of someone (of authority?) in the Perugia police department. This was because of one or more of the following reasons: 1. Guede was a police informant; 2. Guede was receiving protection from the wealthy family (the wealthiest in Perugia) or some concerned member of that family, who had supposedly ended contact with him about mid-2007 because of his behavior deemed unacceptable by (some?) members of that family; 3. Guede was recognized by the police as a local sports (youth basketball) hero; or 4. Some other reason I can't guess at.

Also, before someone states that Guede was bailed out, I will note that there is no such institution as "bail" - payment of a bond to release an alleged offender from detention as a suspect or pre-trial detention - in Italy.

So I don't know - and neither, I believe, do other posters know - whether or not Guede was unknown to the police - and specifically to the ones investigating the Kercher murder/rape. What is the evidence that supports the statement that "Guede was unknown to the police" at the relevant time, considering the apparent evidence that the Perugia police had secured his release from custody in Milan just several days before the murder/rape of Kercher?

 

[TruthCalls]

I haven't always agreed with everything Numbers has written, but one cannot complain about his thoroughness.

This is EXACTLY the problem with the assumption that 'the break in was fake'. That assumption became hard-baked into Mignini's/the Police's way of thinking and their early theories - SIMPLY BECAUSE AT THAT TIME RUDY GUEDE WAS UNKNOWN TO THEM. Of the three people that they'd originally suspected/arrested, none of the three were deemed capable of breaking in through Filomena's second story bedroom window - as well as, their early theory was that Knox had let the three of them in, so no need for a break-in.

Ergo, it must have been faked, because none of the original three could manage a real one, so the cops thought.

I remember reading the papers as the days went on.... soon there was reported the possibility of a **fourth** assailant - of course, that was Guede once he'd become known, once the police had heard him say on a Skype call back to Perugia from Germany, that Amanda Knox - that she had not been involved. Repeat, Guede's earliest confession was that she'd not been involved - and he did not know that police were eavesdropping on the call.

Point being, once Guede was known to have done this, suddenly the evidence surrounding the break-in made sense. Instead of hitting reset - allowing the new available evidence to guide the investigation - the cops/Mignini simply substituted Guede for Lumumba. Yet, they stuck with the faked break-in, even though the simplest explanation was that Guede had done the deed through Filomena's window, as a subsequent TV demonstration showed.
Numbers post should be read and reread. Me, I don't really go with Steve Moore's 'police informant' theory.... as to why 'investigative amnesia' took hold. 'Investigative amnesia' was the way that the final acquitting court put it, as to why the investigation had been flawed.

Exactly my point. I DO believe the police actually believed Amanda and Raffaele were involved. But as I've often said, at the time of their arrest they had no real evidence implicating them - other than their own belief and a coerced statement. So when the forensic evidence came back from the lab, the investigation learned two things; (1) Guede's forensic traces were everywhere, including indications of a sexual assault and (2) there were no forensic traces of Amanda, Raffaele or Lumumba. It was at this point where the police should have done a mea culpa, admitted they got it wrong, that they now had the killer, release the three, issue an apology, and proceeded to prosecution. Instead, the doubled down, swapping Lumumba for Guede, blaming the mix-up on Amanda, and continuing to point the finger at Amanda and Raffaele. And as you said, call it what you want, but it's clear they did this deliberately, even though they still had no compelling evidence against them.

It's also why I've theorized dozens of times over the court of 14 years that had the police NOT gone out and arrested Amanda and Raffaele, had NOT held a massive international press conference and declare 'case closed', and had instead waited for the forensic results to come back, that Amanda and Raffaele would never have been implicated. But it was too late, and given Mignini's own legal and public image problems, backtracking on such a grand scale was simply not an option for him, and Amanda and Raffaele wound up paying for his arrogance.

 

[Numbers]

Exactly my point. I DO believe the police actually believed Amanda and Raffaele were involved. But as I've often said, at the time of their arrest they had no real evidence implicating them - other than their own belief and a coerced statement. So when the forensic evidence came back from the lab, the investigation learned two things; (1) Guede's forensic traces were everywhere, including indications of a sexual assault and (2) there were no forensic traces of Amanda, Raffaele or Lumumba. It was at this point where the police should have done a mea culpa, admitted they got it wrong, that they now had the killer, release the three, issue an apology, and proceeded to prosecution. Instead, the doubled down, swapping Lumumba for Guede, blaming the mix-up on Amanda, and continuing to point the finger at Amanda and Raffaele. And as you said, call it what you want, but it's clear they did this deliberately, even though they still had no compelling evidence against them.

It's also why I've theorized dozens of times over the court of 14 years that had the police NOT gone out and arrested Amanda and Raffaele, had NOT held a massive international press conference and declare 'case closed', and had instead waited for the forensic results to come back, that Amanda and Raffaele would never have been implicated. But it was too late, and given Mignini's own legal and public image problems, backtracking on such a grand scale was simply not an option for him, and Amanda and Raffaele wound up paying for his arrogance.

Yes.

After the police and prosecutor (the lawful boss of the police in their investigation) made their highly unlawful coercive interrogations of Knox and Sollecito, and used Knox's coerced false statements and falsely used her phone message (in a reproduction doctored to eliminate the closing phrase "good evening", BTW) to Lumumba as evidence for an arrest warrant, and then proceeded to trumpet "case closed" in a press conference essentially before the whole world, the police and prosecutor were stuck after they found the evidence that Guede had committed the murder/rape of Kercher alone and had, of course, broken in through the window.

The police and prosecutor must have felt that they could not simply apologize to Knox, Sollecito, and Lumumba and maintain that only the actual suspect based on the evidence, Guede, was to be prosecuted. There were two reasons for this: 1. The wish to avoid a loss of face, including a perceived need to maintain the authority of the police and prosecutor in the eyes of the public; and 2. The wish to avoid possible prosecution for the violations of criminal law committed during the interrogation of Knox. For this last point, recall that when Mignini prosecuted Knox for calunnia against the police - which case was expanded in the Florence court to calunnia against the police and Mignini - the potential charges against the police and prosecutors would have included calunnia (which can carry a sentence of 2 to 6 years, or even 4 to 12 years, if the false accusation is for a crime with a sentence of more than 5 years*) if a court accepted Knox's testimony on the interrogation as true. In addition, there were the potential charges of entering false information into an official document and obtaining statements by violence and threats.

If all the above is considered, it becomes clear that the police and prosecutor would be highly motivated to continue the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito, and even to continue measures to continue to frame them, as long as those measures could be well hidden or disguised as mistakes.

Perhaps this also explains the reason for the "police riot" that occurred after the Hellmann Court of Appeal judgment of acquittal was announced.

* https://www.altalex.com/documents/n...itti-contro-l-amministrazione-della-giustizia
See CP Article 368

 

[Numbers]

Two points about Mignini's history to recall with respect to prosecutions and judicial discipline: 1. He had been prosecuted for abuse of power for his actions during the Monster of Florence investigation; the case was ultimately dismissed when the Italian judiciary managed to run the court trials beyond the statute of limitations (this soft ending occurred after Knox and Sollecito were interrogated); 2. He was censured by the governing body of the judiciary (High Council of the Magistrates) for denying Sollecito a defense attorney during the interrogation. The censure IIUC had no material consequence; it was only a reprimand.

 

[Stacyhs]

I remember the photo of Mignini on the dais at a forum discussing Satanism and the law.

 

[Numbers]

I remember the photo of Mignini on the dais at a forum discussing Satanism and the law.

There's an informative essay in Vox on satanic panics aka allegations of ritual satanic abuse. The modern panics started in the US in the 1980s. Most of the essay treats the US panics and wrongful convictions resulting from them. However, it devotes a paragraph to the murder of Meredith Kercher and the false accusation against Amanda Knox:

And in 2007, the murder of Meredith Kercher in Perugia, Italy, led to the infamous trial and conviction of her flatmate, Amanda Knox. During the trial, chief prosecutor Giuliano Mignini suggested without any evidence that since the murder took place the day after Halloween, Knox must have intended “a sexual and sacrificial rite.” He invoked a modern-day witch hunt against Knox, with one lawyer describing her as “Lucifer-like, Satanic, demonic, diabolical, a witch of deception.” Knox spent four years in prison; on appeal, she was acquitted, re-convicted, re-acquitted, and ultimately exonerated in 2015.

Demonic rituals, false confessions, ruined lives: Satanic Panic is still alive and well

The collective fears that consumed the US in the 1980s and ’90s are still alive and well — all the way through QAnon and beyond.

www.vox.com

BTW, if you're searching for a motive in what happened to Knox and Sollecito during the interrogation, maybe Mignini, on seeing or hearing of Kercher's manner of death and the apparent sexual assault, which took place on All Saints Day - the day after Halloween - but a day of great religious significance to traditional Catholics in Italy, and with his history with the Monster of Florence case of attributing truly horrible murders and mutilations to satanic rituals, he immediately decided that Kercher's murder/rape had to be a satanic ritual. Then, when he first met Amanda Knox - in her new memoir, on page 6, she recollects that when she met him after her police interrogation, he reminded her that they had met previously outside the cottage previously, but she couldn't remember that, further making her doubt her memory - perhaps something about Knox triggered a hunch in Mignini that she was the satanic ritual type. So when Mignini found out how flimsy her alibi was - to him possibly an absurd claim that she was spending a romantic evening with Sollecito, when a satanic ritual type person would be out murdering and raping - he, in consultation with his police subordinates in the investigation, suggested that they interrogate Sollecito to confirm that he really, really supported Knox's alibi, and Knox as well, since perhaps she could be convinced with a little "persuasion" to tell his truth. This is just a speculation, of course, but we're looking for possible motives here.

 

[Numbers]

To follow up, here's a relevant media article linked to the Vox article. This may be reiterating information from Burleigh's book.

How occult-obsessed prosecutor turned Knox trial into a witch hunt

DAY OF JUDGMENT: Amanda Knox, painted as a “she-devil” at her murder trial in Italy, will receive a verdict on her appeal tomorrow. (GETTY IMAGES) ( ) ( )Tomorrow morning is judgment day in the fou…

nypost.com

 

[Numbers]

One of my stray thoughts about the Knox - Sollecito case was whether their prosecution on the murder/rape charges would - if it had happened in the US - be considered a malicious prosecution. In summary, that means a prosecution conducted without probable cause and that causes damage to the person prosecuted*. In the US, as in Italy, the impugned interrogation statements of Knox and Sollecito could not be introduced as evidence against either of them in the murder/rape case. The only relevant evidence that could be considered in the case would be the alleged DNA of Kercher on the knife blade and the alleged DNA of Sollecito on the bra clasp. However, none of that evidence would be considered admissible because of the many defects in the forensic methods used to collect, test, analyze, and report the tests. In US court systems in which full discovery is required, the refusal of the prosecution to share the original automatically generated and digitally recorded DNA test and control data would invalidate that evidence from any further consideration. Thus, the prosecution would end early and the extent of damage to the defendants would be relatively small. However, if the US court system involved did not require full discovery, the possibility would exist that there would be an extended trial and the potential damage to the defendants would be greater; obtaining an acquittal would require an examination of the overall DNA evidence similar to that done by order of the Hellmann court in Italy. **

The Italian courts are relatively weak in their criteria for the admissiblity of evidence, probably a residual effect of their previous fully inquisitional system.

* https://legaldictionary.net/malicious-prosecution/

** See, for example:

admissible evidence

www.law.cornell.edu

DNA Evidence in the Legal System - The Evaluation of Forensic DNA Evidence - NCBI Bookshelf

Legal Standards and Procedures; The Defendant's Right to Discovery; Expertise; General Acceptance and Sound Methodology. Laboratory Error.

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/criminal_justice/resources/standards/dna-evidence/

Part IV: Pretrial Proceedings

 

[Numbers]

IIRC, the Marasca CSC panel MR accused the investigation - led by prosecutor Mignini and conducted by the Italian state police (from Perugia and Rome) of the Kercher urder/rape case of "amnesia" and "glaring (clamorous) failures (deficiencies)" among other faults.

Some posters here, IIUC, claim that the police and prosecutor had no reason to falsify or coerce any statements. Those posters claim essentially that the police involved in the case followed the law. However, facts reported since the impugned investigation show that certain of the key police officers in the Knox - Sollecito case in fact are willing and capable of breaking the law.

An obscure child custody case in Perugia, Italy has revealed what prosecutors allege was a rogue group of four detectives in the town's elite homicide squad. Three of the detectives currently under investigation worked on the Meredith Kercher homicide in 2007 - and may shed light on how the murder squad bungled the interrogation of Amanda Knox in November 2007. ....

Monica Napoleoni is a deputy commissioner in the Perugia police department and was, until recently, chief of the murder squad. .... She and her murder squad were the lead investigators in the Meredith Kercher homicide case. .... Prosecutors say murder squad detective Lorena Zugarini oversaw the illegal computer inquiries. Zugarini also worked on the Kercher case and was one of Amanda Knox's interrogators. .... In February 2013, Zugarini, Napoleoni, and two other detectives were transferred out of the murder squad as a result of the Perugia prosecutor's investigation into abuse of power allegations. The Perugia prosecutor also entered wiretap evidence into court which revealed one murder squad detective telling Napoleoini that the detective was concerned about potential questions from the prosecutor about "what we did for you."

There were a series of 100s of illegal computer inquiries in the police data system regarding one or more persons involved in Napoleoni's divorce and subsequent proceedings. An automobile was vandalized and threats were written on it.

Un esercizio del proprio potere per accertamenti arbitrari su una psicologa nominata dal tribunale in una controversia con il coniuge. Per questo l’ex capo della Squadra Omicidi della questura di Perugia, Monica Napoleoni, è stata condannata a 3 anni e 3 mesi di reclusione.

An exercise of her power for arbitrary investigations on a psychologist appointed by the court in a dispute with her spouse. For this, the former head of the Homicide Squad of the Perugia police headquarters, Monica Napoleoni, was sentenced to 3 years and 3 months in prison.

See:

Amanda Knox Update: Could an abuse of power investigation into several Italian detectives impact the latest Knox trial?

Three of the detectives who initially interrogated Amanda Knox in the Meredith Kercher murder are under investigation for abuse of power

www.cbsnews.com

Condannata l'ex capo della squadra Omicidi di Perugia a 3 anni e 3 mesi per accesso abusivo a sistema informatico e danneggiamento - Il Fatto Quotidiano

Un esercizio del proprio potere per accertamenti arbitrari su una psicologa nominata dal tribunale in una controversia con il coniuge. Per questo l’ex capo della Squadra Omicidi della questura di Perugia, Monica Napoleoni, è stata condannata a 3 anni e 3 mesi di reclusione. La poliziotta...

www.ilfattoquotidiano.it

 

[Vixen]

IIRC, the Marasca CSC panel MR accused the investigation - led by prosecutor Mignini and conducted by the Italian state police (from Perugia and Rome) of the Kercher urder/rape case of "amnesia" and "glaring (clamorous) failures (deficiencies)" among other faults.

Some posters here, IIUC, claim that the police and prosecutor had no reason to falsify or coerce any statements. Those posters claim essentially that the police involved in the case followed the law. However, facts reported since the impugned investigation show that certain of the key police officers in the Knox - Sollecito case in fact are willing and capable of breaking the law.



There were a series of 100s of illegal computer inquiries in the police data system regarding one or more persons involved in Napoleoni's divorce and subsequent proceedings. An automobile was vandalized and threats were written on it.





See:

Amanda Knox Update: Could an abuse of power investigation into several Italian detectives impact the latest Knox trial?

Three of the detectives who initially interrogated Amanda Knox in the Meredith Kercher murder are under investigation for abuse of power

www.cbsnews.com

Condannata l'ex capo della squadra Omicidi di Perugia a 3 anni e 3 mesi per accesso abusivo a sistema informatico e danneggiamento - Il Fatto Quotidiano

Un esercizio del proprio potere per accertamenti arbitrari su una psicologa nominata dal tribunale in una controversia con il coniuge. Per questo l’ex capo della Squadra Omicidi della questura di Perugia, Monica Napoleoni, è stata condannata a 3 anni e 3 mesi di reclusione. La poliziotta...

www.ilfattoquotidiano.it

As I keep saying before, the personal beliefs and acrimonious divorce details of the police don't cancel out that a horrible murder was committed with the perps interfering with the victim's underwear to present her half naked. Sollecito's DNA was on the bra strap hook beneath the body.

No amount of propaganda by self-professed Knox advocate Nina Burleigh changes the truth of the matter.
s

= Reality.


.

 

[Numbers]

There's a US case of multiple coerced false confessions or statements. Perhaps we can understand what the motivation - if any - that the police might have had in coercing the confessions. Was it to protect the real criminal or was it to to appear to solve the case quickly to quiet public concerns? Did it involve one or more intentional violations of law or regulations? Was there some other motivation?

Could it be called "framing" of the persons making the false confessions or statements, who long after being convicted were found by DNA testing to be innocent of the crime, after another person's DNA was found to match the DNA in the victim, admitted freely to the crime, and was already in prison for committing a series of rapes, including one rape where he murdered the woman?

How does it matter whether or not one calls the act of police coercion of suspects - who are to be presumed innocent and have certain defense rights in the US and in Italy - to make false confessions or statements, framing? Should it be called instead "official misconduct with the aim of coercing a probable false confession or statement"?

I'm referring to the Central Park Jogger case, in which 5 young teenage males made false statements/confessions to criminal acts in the rape and severe injury of a woman jogging in Central Park (in Manhattan, New York City) only to recant them about a week later.

They had each been interrogated individually by police in private, without any detailed documentation or recording, followed by a final interrogation, generally in the presence of a parent, that was recorded on videotape and included a false statement or confession.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case

 

[AmyStrange]

As I keep saying before, the personal beliefs and acrimonious divorce details of the police don't cancel out that a horrible murder was committed with the perps interfering with the victim's underwear to present her half naked. Sollecito's DNA was on the bra strap hook beneath the body.

No amount of propaganda by self-professed Knox advocate Nina Burleigh changes the truth of the matter.
s

= Reality.

Reality = No amount of propaganda from a self-professed Knox hater changes the truth of the matter:

She and Raffaele are innocent, but Guede is not.

FTFY


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[Vixen]

<snip personal abuse>

She and Raffaele are innocent, but Guede is not.

FTFY


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Do you always try to bully people who have a different opinion from yourself? Why do you believe only people who share your view are allowed to comment? Perhaps reevaluate your behaviour towards others.

 

[AmyStrange]

Do you always try to bully people who have a different opinion from yourself? Why do you believe only people who share your view are allowed to comment? Perhaps reevaluate your behaviour towards others.

Only when you do it first.


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[Vixen]

Only when you do it first.


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Citation, please.


.

 

[AmyStrange]

Citation, please.

Just about everything you've ever posted.


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[Vixen]

Just about everything you've ever posted.


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In future, address the topic and not the person.



.

 

[AmyStrange]

In future, address the topic and not the person.

Just following your lead.

BTW, you still haven't shown any evidence that the US government AND the Mafia were responsible for Amanda and Raffaele's exoneration.

What's taking you so damn long or was that just another of your opinions with no evidence to back it up?


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[Vixen]

Just following your lead.

BTW, you still haven't shown any evidence that the US government AND the Mafia were responsible for Amanda and Raffaele's exoneration.

What's taking you so damn long or was that just another of your opinions with no evidence to back it up?


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If you followed the argument, instead of playground name-calling, you will have noted I pointed out the irregularity of the Hellman and Marasca/Bruno legal processes.

 

[AmyStrange]

If you followed the argument, instead of playground name-calling, you will have noted I pointed out the irregularity of the Hellman and Marasca/Bruno legal processes.

Translation: I have nothing except opinions with no facts to back them up.


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