Split Thread Diversity Equity and Inclusion and merit in employment etc

There you are again, framing it as "discrimination".

Past discrimination justifies extra efforts to restore balance in the present.
Until when? Affirmative action, which DEI largely replaced, had been around for almost 50 years. And there's no need to use a convoluted euphemism for present discrimination, Ibrahim X Kendi is more honest:

The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination.​

 
You did not put anybody alive today in poverty, and neither did your ancestors. Society has a responsibility to provide equal opportunity for all. That should be what we strive for.

As implausible as I find it that someone who voted for people to be snatched off the street and sent to a foreign gulag without due process gives the remotest ◊◊◊◊ about equity, I have good news for you, what you claim to want is exactly the purpose of DEI.
 
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First, rightly or wrongly, generational debt actually is a thing, even if most debts aren't passed on.

Second, the government can be reasonably held responsible for a significant portion of what wrongs were done.
The governments responsible are long gone. The US carries out a rolling regime change, on an effectively continuous basis. I'd allude to the ship of Theseus, but even Theseus is long gone.
 
The governments responsible are long gone. The US carries out a rolling regime change, on an effectively continuous basis. I'd allude to the ship of Theseus, but even Theseus is long gone.
An argument for even less responsibility, I see. Well, I guess government contracts really don't need to be upheld from one regime to another, then. I suppose that would be quite in line with the current administration's views, after all.
 
The discrimination and punishment you're referring to exists only in your head, right next to where it seemed like a good idea to vote for crashing the economy and killing children with measles.
Excluding someone because you are bigoted against their skin color is punishment.
 
You did not put anybody alive today in poverty, and neither did your ancestors. Society has a responsibility to provide equal opportunity for all. That should be what we strive for.
In other words, yes, Riley Bishop should get exactly the same treatment in all ways as Jampijinpa Jangala even though their circumstances are very, very different.

You just don't care about poor people. ◊◊◊◊ 'em. If they can't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps they can starve. Never mind that they can't afford bootstraps.

What a ◊◊◊◊◊◊ philosophy.
 
First, rightly or wrongly, generational debt actually is a thing, even if most debts aren't passed on.

Second, the government can be reasonably held responsible for a significant portion of what wrongs were done. That's categorically different than trying to pretend that it's just some person's ancestor acting badly. Naturally, that happened in concert with plenty of white people reaping the benefits.

Third, describing what is in play as atoning for the acts of their predecessors is rather questionable. Scenario - white farmer murders a neighboring black farmer, gets away with it scot-free, and buys his murdered neighbor's farm super cheap after colluding with local government officials. Time goes by and his son inherits the larger farm. Going by your argument, nothing at all is allowed be done to rectify the injustice once the son has inherited the larger farm, much of which was gained extremely unjustly.
How do you know this about anybody in particular? Do you just assume every White person has a murderous ancestor who wronged a Black person? And if a White person has an ancestor wrong by a Black person, do they also get to play the grievence game?
 
In other words, yes, Riley Bishop should get exactly the same treatment in all ways as Jampijinpa Jangala even though their circumstances are very, very different.

You just don't care about poor people. ◊◊◊◊ 'em. If they can't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps they can starve. Never mind that they can't afford bootstraps.

What a ◊◊◊◊◊◊ philosophy.
So it's not about race or ancestry but economic class? Well how 'bout that.
 
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In other words, yes, Riley Bishop should get exactly the same treatment in all ways as Jampijinpa Jangala even though their circumstances are very, very different.
It is interesting that you always change "opportunity" to "treatment."
 
An argument for even less responsibility, I see. Well, I guess government contracts really don't need to be upheld from one regime to another, then. I suppose that would be quite in line with the current administration's views, after all.
I'm not going to argue in favor of responsibility for things I'm not responsible for. If you want to talk about reparations to current citizens for current injustices, you have my attention and respect.

As far as I'm concerned, the liability for slavery expired with the death of the last former slave.
 
How do you know this about anybody in particular? Do you just assume every White person has a murderous ancestor who wronged a Black person? And if a White person has an ancestor wrong by a Black person, do they also get to play the grievence game?
Irrelevant. I was pointing out how your logic works and how incredibly unjust it is at the core. I used a scenario that's based on actual happenings, but the principle of why it's so bad remains the same even without skin color. In the end, your logic quite seems to tailored to be nothing more than a selfish appeal to not hold you, personally, accountable and that you would bear no responsibility to fix things, even if you were the son in question and the murdered farmer's family wants the land back and/or reasonable compensation for what's been taken from them by way of criminal action.

Given Republican behavior especially lately, though, it's not hard to assume that you'd be arguing against having to take any responsibility even if you were the murdering farmer. It's never your fault, after all.

I'm not going to argue in favor of responsibility for things I'm not responsible for.

You're the one who just argued against the very concept of governments continuing to uphold their responsibilities when leaders change. While you're free to do so, I'm also free to view that as remarkably short-sighted.

If you want to talk about reparations to current citizens for current injustices, you have my attention and respect.

While there are arguments that can be made there, such is actually a distraction from the immediate points that were at hand, because of all the rest that surrounds that topic.

As far as I'm concerned, the liability for slavery expired with the death of the last former slave.
A sentiment that would have more bite to it if say, the 13th Amendment didn't have a huge legal loophole in it that was exploited quite a lot to continue slavery in all but name, before getting to everything else.
 
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Irrelevant. I was pointing out how your logic works and how incredibly unjust it is at the core. I used a scenario that's based on actual happenings, but the principle of why it's so bad remains the same even without skin color. In the end, your logic quite seems to tailored to be nothing more than a selfish appeal to not hold you, personally, accountable and that you would bear no responsibility to fix things, even if you were the son in question and the murdered farmer's family wants the land back and/or reasonable compensation for what's been taken from them by way of criminal action.
You're just trying to find excuses to be bigoted against people with skin color you don't like.
 
It is interesting that you always change "opportunity" to "treatment."
This is Vaucluse, NSW, where my (to be clear, fictional) example Riley Bishop lives:
vaucluse.png

This isn't Kalkarindji, where my other (and equally fictional) example Jampijinpa Jangala lives, this is Timber Creek, NT, which is the closest I could find that Google Street View gets to Kalkarindji, and it's 9 hours away by road:
timber creek.png

You tell me whether you think the opportunities afforded to each are the same, should be the same, or could possibly be the same.
 
This is Vaucluse, NSW, where my (to be clear, fictional) example Riley Bishop lives:
View attachment 59934

This isn't Kalkarindji, where my other (and equally fictional) example Jampijinpa Jangala lives, this is Timber Creek, NT, which is the closest I could find that Google Street View gets to Kalkarindji, and it's 9 hours away by road:
View attachment 59935

You tell me whether you think the opportunities afforded to each are the same, should be the same, or could possibly be the same.
Which one is supposed to be worse?
 
And the fact that you evade the question is unsurprising.
Well let's see. This seven bedroom, seven bathroom, triple garage house in Vaucluse is valued at AU$8.8 million. It could be yours for an up-front deposit of AU$1.7 million. On the other hand, I couldn't even find a listing for any of the ramshackle tin roofed shacks that make up the settlement of Kalkarindji, nine hours from the nearest hospital. Does that give you some idea of which of the two is "better" or "worse"?

Also, does that help you to answer the questions I put to you? Are the opportunities afforded to people in these two places the same? Should they be the same? Would it even be possible for them to be the same?
 
What's to stop the kid in the ramshackle house from going to school, studying hard, going to college, and becoming, say, a software engineer?
 
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You're just trying to find excuses to be bigoted against people with skin color you don't like.

A laughable claim coming from someone who voted to put the dumbest, most unqualified white guys in charge of the country because they found the campaign message of “They’re eating the pets” so compelling.
 

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