Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

Do you think the differences between men and women are merely skin deep, much like those between European Americans and African Americans?

Do you think an historically oppressed group (females) demanding separate spaces and leagues is comparable to an historically oppressive group (Europeans and their descendants) forcibly placing other ethnic groups in separate spaces?

Do I think they are comparable? Within the confines of making a certain point, sure.

Do I think they need to be absolutely analogous in every conceivable detail and therefore unable to be compared in any way to any other situation in history in order to even mention them? No, probably not.

 

[Ziggurat]

As I pointed out earlier, there are an infinite number of possibilities between the extremes of anyone can ID as trans and transwomen are men. Declaring one extreme to be too hard and unworkable doesn't mean we have to default to the other extreme.

That's a copout. Answer the damn question. What's your preferred policy? Not just for sports.

 

[Hercules56]

Mental disorders should be treated, not enabled.

Do you think gender dysphoria is a mental disorder that needs to be treated?

There appears to be a lot of evidence that transition does actually help people with gender dysphoria live a more normal life, with significant reduction of the stress and anxiety caused by their dysphoria.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/446373-poll-majority-support-law-allowing-transgender-people-to-use-bathrooms-that/

 

[Thermal]

What "social presentation" is specific to women?

Nothing in particular. Why do you ask?

 

[Thermal]

Where does the British public stand on transgender rights in 2024/25? | YouGov

Scepticism towards transgender rights has grown across the board since 2022

yougov.co.uk

Ok. Brits surveyed are leaning farther right, getting a little less tolerant. So? What does that have to do with New Jerseyans? We're not British, you know.

 

[Rolfe]

What "social presentation" is specific to women?

On a Danube river cruise a few years ago, about four waiters (always waiters, never a waitress) addressed me as "sir", before quite quickly changing to "madam". The fourth time I laughed and said, you're the fourth person who has done that, what am I doing wrong? He said, it's the hair, madam.

At the time I had my hair shoulder length, but caught back in a ponytail. (Usually I wear it short.) No, me neither.

I did wonder if I should tell him and his mates to be really really careful who they said that to. Because if they said it to someone with a five o'clock shadow and a prominent Adam's apple, he'd probably get them fired.

 

[Rolfe]

Ok. Brits surveyed are leaning farther right, getting a little less tolerant. So? What does that have to do with New Jerseyans? We're not British, you know.

Brits are wising up to the trans fraud faster than Yanks, that's all.

 

[Thermal]

You don't seriously believe that, do you?

People are able to correctly sex other human beings quicker than they register what race they are. Babies have been shown to be able to do it in the first weeks of life.

...yes, yes that was the point. We clock sex/gender very intuitively, without a genital inspection.

 

[smartcooky]

Yet you're okay with trans-women in your bathroom?

Yup, because they are male

I've pointed out the flaw in your reading comprehension. I can't understand it for you.

Read it again slowly. You won't find a part where I attribute it to you.

I never claimed you did.

I repeat

- YOU said those things
- I called you out for it
- YOU posted a link to back up YOUR claim
- I asked you show me where in the link it supports the things YOU claimed

Now you're just dodging

It's hard and messy, so we have no choice but to treat trans-women as men and trans-men as women.

Of course we have a choice. We can simply use objective, observable, biological reality.

Males are male - they have always been male and will always be male. No amount of lipstick, make-up, jewellery, dresses or surgery can change this fact. Let me give you an example. The Police find the skeletal remains of a person in the desert. There is no flesh or clothing associated with the remains - no other clues than the bones themselves.

Forensic examiners are able to determine the skeleton is that of a male in his mid 30's. They are able to tell this from the relative sizes and condition of the bones, and the sex of the deceased individual is determined by observing the skeleton's pelvis.

Now, since you believe that transwomen are women, how can the forensic examiner determine whether not those skeletal remains are those of a transwoman? Answer, they can't. Once the person is dead, there is no way to tell...

If you were right, then there would be physiological attributes that would survive death. There are not, so you are not.

 

[Rolfe]

...yes, yes that was the point. We clock sex/gender very intuitively, without a genital inspection.

We clock sex. Gender is a load of made-up bollocks. Though I agree I can usually tell if a man is cosplaying "womanhood" too. Still a man though.

Men seem to be less adept at clocking sex than women are. Still, I don't think it's by that much, and really, it still doesn't explain the sheer obtuseness of some of the comments I hear from men about the issue.

 

[Rolfe]

Yup, because they are male


I never claimed you did.

I repeat

- YOU said those things
- I called you out for it
- YOU posted a link to back up YOUR claim
- I asked you show me where in the link it supports the things YOU claimed

Now you're just dodging


Of course we have a choice. We can simply use objective, observable, biological reality.

Males are male - they have always been male and will always be male. No amount of lipstick, make-up, jewellery, dresses or surgery can change this fact. Let me give you an example. The Police find the skeletal remains of a person in the desert. There is no flesh or clothing associated with the remains - no other clues than the bones themselves.

Forensic examiners are able to determine the skeleton is that of a male in his mid 30's. They are able to tell this from the relative sizes and condition of the bones, and the sex of the deceased individual is determined by observing the skeleton's pelvis.

Now, since you believe that transwomen are women, how can the forensic examiner determine whether not those skeletal remains are those of a transwoman? Answer, they can't. Once the person is dead, there is no way to tell...

If you were right, then there would be physiological attributes that would survive death. There are not, so you are not.

Ten men and ten transwomen are stranded on a remote island. In a hundred years, there will be 20 male skeletons. And nobody else.

 

[Pixel42]

Nothing in particular. Why do you ask?

It's a question that's come up more than once on this thread. I agree with your answer: in societies which outlaw sex discrimination, and in which everyone is free to dress and present themselves however they choose, phrases like "present as a woman" or "act like a woman" are utterly meaningless.

I've found that those who use such phrases are usually referring to the sort of outdated gender stereotypes that women like me have been fighting against all our lives.

 

[Thermal]

We clock sex. Gender is a load of made-up bollocks. Though I agree I can usually tell if a man is cosplaying "womanhood" too. Still a man though.

Right, and I can usually tell if it's a guy too, or at least strongly suspect.

But the thing is, so what? They are living as if they were a woman, so... okay by me. He is a she. It just doesn't bother me.

That's the problem with this thread. We keep.richocheting around. "The problem is the pervs who will exploit self ID access", and the next post is "I can tell if a tranny is a male" then it's "how does a woman present socially?"

Y'all are freewheeling the whole topic, and change it every time things aren't going your way. It's maddening.

 

[Pixel42]

There it is again. "... living as if they were a woman". What does it mean? What, specifically, would you Thermal do differently if, starting tomorrow, you "lived as a woman"? Other than use different sex segregated facilities?

 

[Mycroft]

You do understand that people who identify as non-binary are all in fact biologically either male or female? Non-binary is an ideological position that says biological sex doesn't exist but is socially constructed to oppress people.

Non-binary wasn't the correct word choice, but your definition of non-binary is silly.

 

[Thermal]

It's a question that's come up more than once on this thread. I agree with your answer: in societies which outlaw sex discrimination, and in which everyone is free to dress and present themselves however they choose, phrases like "present as a woman" or "act like a woman" are utterly meaningless.

I've found that those who use such phrases are usually referring to the sort of outdated gender stereotypes that women like me have been fighting against all our lives.

I get that. For me, it's just registering, or 'clocking' that this is a man or woman, a crude or refined personality, rambunctious or reserved, that kind of stuff. And I adjust my approach to them for their comfort while we interact. What they biologically are isn't that significant, because I'm not usually biologically interacting with them.

 

[Mycroft]

That argument cuts both ways. If 10 is an insignificant number, then why do we need to include those 10 transwomen in NCAA women's sports? Not much harm in excluding only 10 people, is there?

There it is. The real goal is excluding trans-people.

 

[Rolfe]

Right, and I can usually tell if it's a guy too, or at least strongly suspect.

But the thing is, so what? They are living as if they were a woman, so... okay by me. He is a she. It just doesn't bother me.

That's the problem with this thread. We keep.richocheting around. "The problem is the pervs who will exploit self ID access", and the next post is "I can tell if a tranny is a male" then it's "how does a woman present socially?"

Y'all are freewheeling the whole topic, and change it every time things aren't going your way. It's maddening.

It is NOT OK by me, and you do not speak for me. I have never said "the problem is the pervs who will exploit self-ID access" or anything remotely similar. The problem is MEN in what should be a female-only space. Any men. Sir Galahad would not be welcome. St Christopher would not be welcome. The winner of "the nicest boy in America" would not be welcome. A gay man would not be welcome.

Of course, the very last people who should be allowed in are men who WANT to go in, for fairly obvious reasons, but basically no men. None at all. Not with a doctor's certificate, or a note from his mum.

These are FEMALE spaces, for doing things we don't want men around when we're doing them, and for getting away from places where men might just happen to have an involuntary erection or an irresistible urge to ogle. But basically, for reasons of propriety, modesty and decency. No men.

 

[Thermal]

There it is again. "... living as if they were a woman". What does it mean? What, specifically, would you Thermal do differently if, starting tomorrow, you "lived as a woman"? Other than use different sex segregated facilities?

Addressed (kinda sorta) above. I don't know what I would do if I was another person, because I'm not. Kind of an unanswerable question.

 

[Rolfe]

There it is. The real goal is excluding trans-people.

Incorrect. The goal is excluding all males from female spaces and categories. Trans or not.