Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Mycroft said:
They said it took away from their rights because it took away from the sanctity of marriage.

We don't agree with that today, but a lot of people did back then.
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"Sanctity of marriage" is a very subjective thing. There is no test to determine whether marriage has sanctity or not, so it was never a good argument to make to oppose gay marriage.

But self-ID absolutely does take away the right of females to exclude males from intimate spaces. That's an objective fact. The value you place on that may be subjective, but the thing itself isn't. With self-ID, females cannot exclude males from intimate spaces. That's an objectively true statement.

Do you value the ability of females to exclude males from intimate spaces? Apparently you don't. Many of us do.
 
Mycroft said:
What? 10 out of a half million is an insignificant number.
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That argument cuts both ways. If 10 is an insignificant number, then why do we need to include those 10 transwomen in NCAA women's sports? Not much harm in excluding only 10 people, is there?
 
Ziggurat said:
No, he isn't. Nor is he saying that men don't get raped. He's saying that we as a society don't provide much support for males (men or transwomen) who get raped. Do you disagree?
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It's hard to say, 'as a society'. I think I mentioned long ago that I live in one of the apocalyptic hellholes that y'all are so terrified of. Transgender access to bathrooms, including public schools, rape crisis centers with no sex/gender admission requirements, etc. And in the nation's most densely populated state, with every county designated 'urban', not a backwoods community with 30 residents. Surrounded by NYC, Philly, and my beloved Atlantic City (Las Vegas Lite,: all the decadence, none of the class).

What he proposes is eliminating transwoman access to rape crisis centers, which we already have, and with no sex or gender requirements. Then he wants to turn them all female-only, then throw up his hands and say 'as a society, we don't provide rape help for males'.

Btw, in the post he was responding to, I said not a word about mens or womens rape crisis shelters. I just said safe space for rape victims. He moved the goalposts in an epic fashion to reframe the problem under his bigoted model, which is not the reality in most places.
 
Rolfe said:
"Transwomen" are men. If you don't understand that, I don't really know what you're doing on a web site generally thought of as supporting the scientific view of reality.
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From a purely scientific point of view, trans women are indeed still men.
 
Still? They always will be. And men are what women's single-sex spaces were set up to exclude.
 
smartcooky said:
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Your reply is otherwise nonsensical if I don't assume that, as rape crisis centers (over here, anyway) already accommodate both sexes and all genders.
 
Hercules56 said:
From a purely scientific point of view, trans women are indeed still men.
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And that's important to know when undergoing some medical treatment, or if you are planning to ◊◊◊◊. For the other 99.999% of human interaction, like simply going to the bathroom in a public facility, it doesn't make the slightest difference.
 
Thermal said:
And that's important to know when undergoing some medical treatment, or if you are planning to ◊◊◊◊. For the other 99.999% of human interaction, like simply going to the bathroom in a public facility, it doesn't make the slightest difference.
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Clearly sports competition also cares about the science of the sexes.

And we also keep men out of women's bathrooms and locker rooms because according to science, people who are members of the male sex generally want to ◊◊◊◊ people who are members of the female sex.
 
Hercules56 said:
Clearly sports competition also cares about the science of the sexes.

And we also keep men out of women's bathrooms and locker rooms because according to science, people who are members of the male sex generally want to ◊◊◊◊ people who are members of the female sex.
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Edited by jimbob: 
rule 0,12


Here in my beloved Garden State, trans students from kindergarten to college have full access to locker rooms, showers and competitive sports, under penalty of law. Public locker rooms and changing rooms are also full access, same same.

Every horrific violent tranny perv rapist scenario you guys concoct if the door s were thrown open, is already here. You just live in some weird pervy fantasy,

Including a brief rundown of policies from da Joisey gubmint for your reading pleasure. Form the NJ dot gov website:

What rights do transgender students have at school? What can I do if I’m getting bullied or harassed?

What rights do transgender students have at school? What can I do if I’m getting bullied or harassed.
www.nj.gov

ETA: although I agree it's unfair for sports. I was arguing with my kids about this. US swimmer Katy Ledecky has held the women's world and Olympic records for the 400m freestyle, for instance, for almost a decade. Her record times wouldn't have even placed her in the men's top 20 finishers in the Olympics last year, and those men weren't setting any records at all.
 
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Mycroft said:
Or you might come over to my opinion if you were to think about it more. Stop being arrogant and either make your case or don't.
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I apologize. I don't mean to sound arrogant. I'm confident. I've been thinking about this a long time.

The conclusion I've come to is that biological sex in humans is (a) binary and (b) not changeable by belief. These two points are axiomatic for me.

Therefore, it is delusional to assert that one's sexual identity is the opposite of one's biological reality. Biological sex doesn't work that way. It can't be determined by self-ID.

A corollary to this is that anywhere we segregate by sex, access to sex-segregated spaces and categories cannot be entitled by self-ID.
Mycroft said:
It's not really your call, is it? It's more a consensus of the medical profession.
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It's not clear to me that the medical profession has reached a consensus on whether gender dysphoria is a birthright condition, or if it can be brought on later by environmental circumstances. It's not even clear to me that the medical profession has done enough good research on the topic to have reached any such consensus. But even if birthright gender dysphoria is the only kind, it doesn't change my argument.

Birthright paranoid schizophrenia doesn't validate the paranoid delusions of the schizophrenic. Birthright factitious disorder by proxy doesn't validate the sickness the sufferer inflicts on others. Why should birthright gender dysphoria validate the delusion that one is the opposite of one's biological sex.
Mycroft said:
Trans-people exist. I think trans should be normalized for that reason alone.
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Sure, in the same way schizophrenia and bipolar disorder should be normalized: We try to de-stigmatize the condition and humanize the people who suffer from it. We don't validate their delusions and enshrine them in public policy as if they were real and healthy.
Mycroft said:
The right to use the public bathroom that matches their gender identity.
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Decoupled from sex, what is gender identity? Other than claiming to be women, what do transwomen have in common with women, that they don't also have in common with men? What outward signs of femininity define one as a woman, entitled to transcend sex segregation boundaries in our society?

Everyone else has the right to use the public bathroom that matches their biological sex, and to enjoy privacy from the opposite sex while doing so. Biological sex is a meaningful distinction for this purpose. Gender identity, decoupled from biological sex, is not.

A man doesn't become a woman by putting on a dress, or by keeping house while his wife goes to work, or by saying he feels like a woman today. Not anymore than a paranoid schizophrenic becomes a targeted individual because he believes he's being gangstalked.
Mycroft said:
Why is the distinction important to you?
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Becuase I believe it's clear that trans rights in public policy at this time boil down to the right transcend sex segregation by fiat self-ID.

I believe sex segregation in some things is an important and useful feature of our society. It's a feature I want to preserve. It's a feature I especially want to preserve against people who would dismantle it through equivocation and obfuscation.

Why is the distinction unimportant to you? Do you believe there is no distinction? Do you believe that your biological sex can be changed on a whim, like your wardrobe?
 
Mycroft said:
You don't like self-identification.

There is an infinite number of possibilities between self-identification and treating transwomen as men. Just because you think one extreme is unworkable doesn't mean we have to default to the other extreme.
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We've examined the spectrum of possibilities, which boil down to variations and degrees of regressive gender stereotype expression, and/or current conventions of sexual modesty. Which raises questions of how much conformity to such stereotypes would be necessary to qualify, and - more importantly - why any degree of conformity to stereotypes or convention should be the qualifying factor at all, for an entitlement to transcend sex segregation.
 
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Mycroft said:
No it's not, but the existence of Swyer Syndrome illustrates it's really not a binary men and women thing. There are times when it's more complex than people being born male or female.
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Again, the debate over trans rights in public policy would be very different if it were actually about finding accommodations for people with Swyer Syndrome.

You haven't even solved for cases like Lia Thomas and Jessica Yaniv, and it's not because you don't have a solution for Swyer syndrome.
 
I think a very important issue for the subject is the following: do trans women actually have the chemistry and brain of a woman? I'm sure there has been some research on this.

Follow up: if trans women actually do have the brain chemistry of a woman as opposed to a man, that would definitely change my thoughts on the issue.
 
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