Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Elaedith said:
This is complete nonsense. The model of autogynephlia developed by Blanchard, Bailey and Lawrence postulates that all transwomen who are gynephilic are autogynephlic. Estimates of transwomen who are attracted to females in countries like the US and UK are generally around at least 70-75%. You can disagree with the theory, but you have not shown any evidence that it is factually incorrect.
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You had it right the first time. It's a postulate, not a theory, lacking reliable data. This particular postulate was pulled out of their asses, and, as you say, they build their model off it. That makes it quite easy to dismiss wholesale, without even having to disagree. That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

As an aside, believing all transwomen who are into babes must mean they are AGP is just flat silly on its face.

In the article (really a letter to readers of a website advocating keeping trans kids "in the closet where they belong"), the authors repeatedly say there is no data, we don't know much about this, etc. As such, that's... you know... fine. Teach parents to psychobabble with their troubled kids. Good call.

And in case it's not obvious, no, I don't like these people and ascribe them little credibility. You know why, I'll bet. That's right, they hang around far-right groups, preaching black genetic inferiority, Jews subverting Euro-american culture, black and Latino intellectual inferiority, and that cat who advocates the "gay germ". You know what they say: if you sit at a table with four nazis, there are five nazis at the table. From our hate-group monitoring friends at the Southern Poverty Law Center:

www.splcenter.org

Northwestern University Psychology Professor J. Michael Bailey Looks into Queer Science

A group of scientists and journalists tries to turn back the clock on sex, gender and race using eugenics and controversial genetic theories.
www.splcenter.org

I'm sure I will be accused of the genetic or origin fallacy for bringing this up. I can even point to who will feel cut to the bone enough to defend these guys.
 
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Thermal said:
He did. And this thread has expressed an obsession with men's dicks that is a bit unnerving. I've gone my whole life with never a thought about men's dicks. Every guy I met could be a eunuch for all I know. Their Johnson means dead zero to me in how we interact or relate to each other. Everything significant about being a man (to me, anyway) has nothing to do with their cocks.
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This is the heart of it, right?

I've never needed to check the genitalia of someone to determine if they're male or female. Nobody has ever checked my genitalia before I used a public bathroom. There must be something to being male or female that transcends genitalia, right?
 
Mycroft said:
This is the heart of it, right?

I've never needed to check the genitalia of someone to determine if they're male or female. Nobody has ever checked my genitalia before I used a public bathroom. There must be something to being male or female that transcends genitalia, right?
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Right? I'm surprised I never really noticed it before, but someone's actual sex... their junk and all, male or female... literally is nothing to me. They could all be Ken dolls down yonder and it wouldn't even blip on my radar, except for my own wife.
 
Mycroft said:
This is the heart of it, right?

I've never needed to check the genitalia of someone to determine if they're male or female. Nobody has ever checked my genitalia before I used a public bathroom. There must be something to being male or female that transcends genitalia, right?
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The thing is, I think posters like you and I get stuck on trans folk, when a lot of posters here are worried about Beavis and Butthead strolling into the girls locker room for a kick (or much worse, obviously). And I have to agree; abuse would be inevitable. That's a tough needle to thread to be fair to everyone.
 
Mycroft said:
I don't remember proposing that. Maybe you extrapolated from something I said?



I believe the awkwardness of that is why trans-advocates prefer self-dentification. You object to self-identification, so what would you propose?



It seems like it is to me.
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So I think the problem is that you have self-ID or you have gate-keeping. One is wide open to abuse and the other involves a regressive use of stereotypes requiring that ID-ing as women involves wearing make-up, high heels, frilly skirts. You know, the things that ladies do.

I guess it comes as no surprise that the word TERF is used to identify those who reject this idea of femaleness, because the OGs of the trans-skeptical movement were themselves actual radical feminists who liked short hair, unshaven legs and pits, dungarees and Doc Martins. When arguing against the partiarchy, I can completely understand that they felt extremely patronized when approached by what they perceived as a dolled up guy fluttering eyelashes saying, "I'm a laaaady!"
 
Thermal said:
And
this thread has expressed an obsession with men's dicks that is a bit unnerving. I've gone my whole life with never a thought about men's dicks. Every guy I met could be a eunuch for all I know. Their Johnson means dead zero to me in how we interact or relate to each other. Everything significant about being a man (to me, anyway) has nothing to do with their cocks.
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Mycroft said:
This is the heart of it, right?

I've never needed to check the genitalia of someone to determine if they're male or female. Nobody has ever checked my genitalia before I used a public bathroom. There must be something to being male or female that transcends genitalia, right?
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Okay, me too, but think about it guys. Could this be what might often be referred to as "male privilege"?

Generally I don't have to wonder who is going to grope me or make aggressive sexual advances on me. I could joke about how unappealing I must be, but for many women, it probably isn't much of a joke.

Remember that meme that was going around about whether a woman alone in the woods would be more worried about meeting a man or a bear? Well, I remember a rather... "woke" female friend of mine saying that she completely understood why women might say they would prefer to meet a bear, then she casually remarked that if it were a transman she would be completely cool with that.

I didn't have to heart to point out to her that she had kind of given the game away with that one.

Is there a reason why a transman would be less threatening to her than a ... well, man?

And what is the corollary with transwomen? I think the logic is inescapable really, isn't it?
 
angrysoba said:
Okay, me too, but think about it guys. Could this be what might often be referred to as "male privilege"?

Generally I don't have to wonder who is going to grope me or make aggressive sexual advances on me. I could joke about how unappealing I must be, but for many women, it probably isn't much of a joke.

Remember that meme that was going around about whether a woman alone in the woods would be more worried about meeting a man or a bear? Well, I remember a rather... "woke" female friend of mine saying that she completely understood why women might say they would prefer to meet a bear, then she casually remarked that if it were a transman she would be completely cool with that.

I didn't have to heart to point out to her that she had kind of given the game away with that one.

Is there a reason why a transman would be less threatening to her than a ... well, man?

And what is the corollary with transwomen? I think the logic is inescapable really, isn't it?
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Yes, that's perfectly fair. Women absolutely will be victims of sexual harassment at a level I could only dream of... er, you know what I mean. That's why I keep reluctantly agreeing that sex segregated spaces need to stay that way. Could you imagine a girls locker room at a high school where boys could self ID to jump in the showers?

ETA: and I think that's what is good about a discussion thread. Get it all out and kick it around, not relying on how you are most inclined to think about it.
 
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Thermal said:
The thing is, I think posters like you and I get stuck on trans folk, when a lot of posters here are worried about Beavis and Butthead strolling into the girls locker room for a kick (or much worse, obviously). And I have to agree; abuse would be inevitable. That's a tough needle to thread to be fair to everyone.
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Exactly.

The Beavis and Buttheads are used to fear-monger, and making a policy that protects trans-people and doesn't protect the Beavis's and Buttheads is hard and messy, and because it's hard and messy, the trans-people of the world just need to put up with being categorized as a gender not of their preference.
 
angrysoba said:
So I think the problem is that you have self-ID or you have gate-keeping. One is wide open to abuse and the other involves a regressive use of stereotypes requiring that ID-ing as women involves wearing make-up, high heels, frilly skirts. You know, the things that ladies do.
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It's hard and messy, so we have no choice but to treat trans-women as men and trans-men as women.

angrysoba said:
I guess it comes as no surprise that the word TERF is used to identify those who reject this idea of femaleness, because the OGs of the trans-skeptical movement were themselves actual radical feminists who liked short hair, unshaven legs and pits, dungarees and Doc Martins. When arguing against the partiarchy, I can completely understand that they felt extremely patronized when approached by what they perceived as a dolled up guy fluttering eyelashes saying, "I'm a laaaady!"
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I think that's very inciteful and probably true.
 
angrysoba said:
And what is the corollary with transwomen? I think the logic is inescapable really, isn't it?
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A lot of civil rights issues are an attempt to change culture.

Women's rights? The cultural value is for women to stay home, keep the house have have and take care of children. Normalizing women having careers was hard and took generations.

Gay rights? Being gay is disgusting! But over time perceptions were changed and it's not so disgusting anymore. That took a lot of hard work.

Being trans doesn't make a person a dangerous predator, but it will take time to change these perceptions.
 
angrysoba said:
Is there a reason why a transman would be less threatening to her than a ... well, man?
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No dick, no threat.
angrysoba said:
And what is the corollary with transwomen? I think the logic is inescapable really, isn't it?
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Retains dick, retains threat.

Hm. Maybe it is all about dick more than I thought.

Bear dick, I have no opinion on, and I'm frankly surprised the average woman feels she does.
 
Mycroft said:
I think making trans-women use men's bathrooms is more about making trans-people feel uncomfortable being out in public than protecting anyone’s safety.
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I think it's more about protecting women's dignity and privacy than it is about either.

If I was in the women's changing room when another woman came in who was coping with an unexpected onset of menstruation I would quietly ascertain if she needed any help and, if not, quickly finish whatever I was doing and leave. I would not need to be asked to give her her privacy, let alone refuse to leave if I was asked. There is currently a case going through the UK courts, discussed earlier in the thread, where a transwoman doctor did exactly that, and the nurse who objected was forced out of her job. That transwoman could not have made it more clear that he was a male, with the male privilege of doing whatever the ◊◊◊◊ he wanted regardless of female needs and feelings.
 
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Mycroft said:
Exactly.

The Beavis and Buttheads are used to fear-monger, and making a policy that protects trans-people and doesn't protect the Beavis's and Buttheads is hard and messy, and because it's hard and messy, the trans-people of the world just need to put up with being categorized as a gender not of their preference.
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Making a policy that protects trans-people and doesn't protect the Beavis's and Buttheads is impossible (I have yet to see anyone, including you, propose a way of doing it, even a hard and messy one). What you're actually saying is that, because it's impossible, all women just have to put up with the flasher from the common joining them in the women's showers and exhibiting himself to them whilst ogling their naked bodies, in order to spare the feelings of a tiny percentage of men. Because, as we all know, the feelings and needs of any man have always, and should always, take priority over the feelings and needs of any number of women. Those females who are unwilling to risk being put into that situation, perhaps because they've been the victims of male sexual violence and the very idea terrifies them, can just stop going to the gym or the swimming pool, right?
 
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Thermal said:
No dick, no threat.

Retains dick, retains threat.

Hm. Maybe it is all about dick more than I thought.

Bear dick, I have no opinion on, and I'm frankly surprised the average woman feels she does.
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Maybe this might help you to understand

Understanding street harassment | Neighbourhood Watch Network

By street harassment, we mean unwanted behaviour in public areas that includes, but is not exclusive of:
www.ourwatch.org.uk www.ourwatch.org.uk

From February to March 2022, the Opinions and Lifestyle Survey (OPN) asked people about their current perceptions of safety and their experiences of harassment in the last 12 months. The findings showed that 82% of women and 42% of men feel fairly or very unsafe walking alone in a park or open space after dark. Half (50%) of all women feel unsafe in a quiet street close to home, 48% on public transport and 45% in a busy public space.​
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A UN Women UK survey conducted in January 2021 found that 71% of women of all ages said they had experienced sexual harassment in a public space. ​
​

I have spoken to the women in my friend groups at length on this issue. The women tell me they always try to be aware of what and who is around them when they are out alone. There are two women I gave a ride to on quiz nights. When I drop them off, I always wait until they have entered the house and closed the door before I drive away. Same when I drop my daughters/granddaughters off at home.
 
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