Rolfe
Adult human female
A lot better than yours, bub.
Transwomen are not Women - Part 15
- Thread starter d4m10n
- Start date
Thermal
August Member
There you go. You've made my point for me clearer than I ever could.
Thermal
August Member
Ok. Perhaps you are genuinely ignorant of this. It would have been much faster to simply say so.
I don't want to link it, as the forum has rules about posting obscene materials. I just checked the guy's wikipedia page, and they refer to it, so you could, you know, google the author you rely on. Or for the more fun approach, google the word '(f--word)saw)' and get the more colorful exploration.
As I literally already spelled this out, describing the story in detail, you are obviously being less than forthright in your claimed ignorance though.
Thermal
August Member
Another vacuous dodge when it is pointed out you are spreading disinformation.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
Hold on - that's begging the question. You haven't demonstrated that it's disinformation, you've just cast doubt on the story by complaining about the source.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
Since Thermal can't bring himself to do the massive intellectual effort of saying who he's talking about, I took the hit and googled. It's this fellow:
en.wikipedia.org
J. Michael Bailey - Wikipedia
Thermal
August Member
To some extent, conceded. I spelled out in great detail how I arrived at the conclusion, so I was being entirely transparent about it. The tweeter and Rolfe, much less so. They reported it as factual, when it amounts to anonymous rumor.
Thermal
August Member
You're a liar. I said four separate times that it was the author of Rolfe's letter. I said so clearly and repeatedly. Stop lying.Since Thermal can't bring himself to do the massive intellectual effort of saying who he's talking about, I took the hit and googled. It's this fellow:
J. Michael Bailey - Wikipedia
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
I'm not lying. Neither Rolfe nor I had any idea what you were talking about because you insisted on NOT linking to her post and kept doing, what was it again?.... oh yes, "Riddle of the Sphinx style vague and vacuous rhetoric.". I helped out by linking to the relevant Wiki page to break this back-and-forth. You should be thanking me.
You're welcome.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Vaunted?
AGP has been known about for a long time, and generally seen as shameful and unnatural, or at best something to be mocked. From the prohibition on men wearing women's clothing in (I think) Deuteronomy, to the Lumberjack Song. My favourite composer of all time was an AGP who was pretty damn annoyed when his dressmaker sold details of his order for pink frilly knickers to the press, some time in the 19th century. It has been suggested in this thread that 3% of men are AGP, which I won't argue with, it sounds high but plausible. I have no idea whether this is something that is hard-wired in the DNA or whether it's triggered by some childhood trauma. If the latter, though, could I suggest identifying the nature of that trauma and ensuring that no more little boys suffer from it?
I've seen estimates that in western societies about 75% of TIMs are AGP, about 25% HSTS and maybe a couple of % other things like certain personality disorders or even autism. Again, that sounds plausible to me. I'm not a psychiatrist so I don't have to qualify my remarks by saying I haven't done a full diagnostic work-up, but in my own observation 100% of the TIMs I know personally are AGP.
Different presentations are described, such as fetishes for dressing in women's clothing, for women's bodily functions such as menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth and lactation, and even urination, for taking the female role in sex, and for doing "womanly" things like sitting knitting. Most AGP men exhibit more than one of these I think. The condition is co-morbid with narcissistic personality disorder in quite a large number of cases, and these men often display hate and violence towards women, apparently out of jealousy. Others strive to ingratiate themselves with women so as to be accepted into women's society; the "old-school trans" are best understood as being in this category.
The massive beef I have with the clinicians who started working with these men is their utter disregard for women in their attempts to "help their patients". Blanchard has been challenged directly on this and said quite openly that his responsibility was to his patients and not to anyone else, and as he thought it would help these men he started training them how to avoid confrontation in women's single-sex spaces and giving them written permission to go there when he thought they had learned how to do it. No women were consulted. This was basically the start of it.
That was "gate-keeping" though, and TRA pressure caused that to be abandoned. No longer did men have to look a certain way or behave in a certain way to have the "right" to enter women's spaces. That would be discrimination, and discrimination is bad. Also, no longer did they have to try to avoid upsetting the women, because in any clash the TIM is always right and the woman is always a transphobe and a hater.
I don't really know how far this has spread to men without AGP simply taking advantage of the leeway offered by saying "I identify as a woman", but I'm not sure it's all that many. Some of the prison-onset gender dysphoria cases possibly, there are stories of men like "Karen" White more or less giving up "presenting" as a woman once they've been transferred to a woman's prison, but generally the more you look at the background of these men, the more evidence there is of pre-existing AGP. It has often been suggested that Will "Lia" Thomas was simply trying to win swimming events to emulate his older brother, who was a lot better than him in the men's section, but his social media has AGP all over it. "Emily" Bridges ditto. I suspect a lot of AGP which would have been hidden in former times is now being acted out partly because it is no longer stigmatised as shameful and unnatural but has become stunning and brave, and partly because of the really attractive fringe benefits like gold medals and watching the girls undress and undressing in front of them. Oh and getting a transfer to a woman's prison.
Of course there's a lot of acting going on, and anyone says "I believe someone when they tell me who they are" is naive in the extreme. Some AGP men deal with it better than others. Some manage to control it and keep their marriages intact. A lot don't. Some adopt an ingratiating approach to women, even managing to become accepted within CG women's groups and writing CG articles and being invited as a speaker, like "Debbie" Hayton, and I can't believe these women fell for it but they did. Some are full-on in-your-face Kill Terfs. But they're all fetishistic men getting off on immersive role-play of their over-sexualised idea of womanhood, in the end.
This is what we have to confront. This is what has managed to get itself recognised by rainbow-draped businesses and organisations and even governments as the most marginalised and vulnerable minority on the planet, who must be deferred to in their every whim or else they'll kill themselves, and that will be your fault, you evil women who wouldn't accept them.
Women and men seem to react differently to learning about this. Women are often reluctant to confront it, oh my lovely trans friend Elaine isn't like that, don't say such a thing, but eventually, the penny usually drops. Normal men, men who don't experience AGP, often can't seem to take it on board at all. They flat-out refuse to believe it and cling to the (much less embarrassing) fiction of the poor suffering woman-trapped-in-a-man's-body narrative. Which is nonsense. The "gendered soul" doesn't exist. We are our bodies. Or, if you're religious, are you seriously saying God makes mistakes when allocating souls to bodies? It's preposterous.
To me, this often seems like a fig-leaf to allow these deniers to go on supporting men against women. Women, you are being absolutely horrible to these poor suffering men, whom I believe implicitly when they tell me they're really women. Just #bekind and let them have what they want, surely you can show them a modicum of politeness! That doesn't play so well when you acknowledge the actual pathology behind all this.
But it's getting through, slowly. Operation Let Them Speak is having an effect. The era of No Debate is coming to an end. I don't have an answer on how best to manage AGP in men, but telling them that of course they're really women trapped in a male body and are of course stunning and brave and that any woman who objects to their presence is an evil transphobe who should be charged with a hate crime is probably not it.
Rolfe
Adult human female
I still have no idea what you are talking about. The article I linked to was co-written by two authors. You addressed nothing of its contents, but started wittering on about a "Professor ◊◊◊◊ Saw", a term I have never encountered, and some anecdote involving a saw which is complete news to me. And, once again, this is the very definition of argumentum ad hominem.
Thermal
August Member
Really? I insisted on NOT linking to her post? Here's the original comment, linked directly to her post. It does assume, in fairness, that the reader is not cognitively impaired and can follow the argument from the linking of the post (that I did) to the repeated claims of it being it's author that was being referred to. Go ahead: click on the post below to see how I "insisted on NOT linking to her post".
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Thermal
August Member
Then
Edited by Agatha:
Removed breach of forum rules
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Rolfe
Adult human female
That's convenient.
Thermal
August Member
If you would stop the bobbing and weaving and playing dumb and lying, there could be a productive discussion, here. You refuse, so yeah, it's convenient to pull the plug.
That is a blatantly dishonest description of the incident. It took place in a guest lecture that was linked to Bailey's course on human sexuality but was not a required part of the course, and attendance was entirely optional. All attendees were over 18 and warned beforehand about the sexually-explicit content. In any case, it has nothing to with the the validity of any of Bailey's research or arguments.
It is very clear that you know nothing at all about this area.
Thermal
August Member
Liar. Not one word you posted refutes one word that I posted. I never said it was 'a required part of the course' or any of the other bull ◊◊◊◊ you threw in.
As I've said more than a couple times, I just thought it was hysterical that of all the possible credible researchers she could have relied on, she chooses Professor ◊◊◊◊ Saw. It's just a freaking comedy skit at this point.
You literally claimed that Bailey picked up a saw himself from Home Depot, put a dildo on it, and ' had a guy go to town on his partner with it in front of students!' Anyone reading that would assume that Bailey himself (not a guest speaker) did this and that it happened in front of students as part of their course.
Bailey is a credible researcher and a leading expert in this field. You have not said anything at all to show otherwise.
Rolfe
Adult human female
It's something I was entirely unaware of, although now I have read the Wikipedia article I know what is being referred to. Seems like a really weird thing to do, but on the other hand a lot of people might find some of the practical courses I did at university relating to animal reproduction to be beyond weird. How on earth I was supposed to infer any of this from Thermal's post I have absolutely no idea.
I return to my observation that this is the very definition of argumentum ad hominem, as this incident is being used to avoid addressing the substance of the Bailey/Blanchard article (perversely referred to as a "letter") other than a bald declaration that it "lacks anything of value to the discussion". Both Bailey and Blanchard are reputable experts in this field, and while I might take issue with their approach in a number of ways, dismissing them as "notorious cranks" because of a single demonstration by Bailey which might have been an error of judgement is simply evasion.
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Thermal
August Member
Oh, is that what you are objecting to? Recounting the incident while laughing hysterically and using some irreverent language? I see. Fine:
I retract my ever so somber accusation that Dr Bailey in fact travelled to the home improvement center known colloquially as "Home Depot" and made any electric demolition tool purchases. I am grievously shamed by this factual misrecounting. It could have been Lowes for all I know. Maybe he even borrowed the reciprocating saw, or his buddy and his babe already had their own. This was wildly irresponsible of me, and of course is fatal to my stated opinion that he is a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ whack job.
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