Split Thread Diversity Equity and Inclusion and merit in employment etc

[johnny karate]

Firefighter has to carry around a minimum amount of equipment. And they have to be able to carry a human body to safety.

That requires a certain level of strength.

That means all applicants have to be able to carry the standard amount of equipment and also carry out I guess the weight of an average human being.

The open question is what those standards are and what data is used to determine them.

 

[johnny karate]

Equity is one of the goals of DEI.

How is that goal achieved if all that is created is equal opportunity but no actual results?

Equal opportunity is the desired result.

 

[Hercules56]

Yeah, I'm not obligated to prove the negative of your claim. Definitely not how it works.

Its wrong to assume that firefighter requirements were designed to keep out women. Just cuz many women cant carry the required load doesn't mean the designer of the requirements was an evil misogynist.

 

[Hercules56]

Equal opportunity is the desired result.

No, the philosophy of DEI includes a desirable outcome that reflects a certain demographic goal. If opportunity is increased but the end result shows no change, the DEI policy has failed. Dont forget the E in DEI is for Equity, not Equality.

 

[johnny karate]

Its wrong to assume that firefighter requirements were designed to keep out women. Just cuz many women cant carry the required load doesn't mean the designer of the requirements was an evil misogynist.

I'm not assuming that. What I'm not assuming is that those requirements are based on actual, relevant data.

 

[johnny karate]

No, the philosophy of DEI includes a desirable outcome that reflects a certain demographic goal. If opportunity is increased but the end result shows no change, the DEI policy has failed. Dont forget the E in DEI is for Equity, not Equality.

You are absolutely crushing it in this argument with yourself based on things you made up.

 

[Hercules56]

You are absolutely crushing it in this argument with yourself based on things you made up.

"Racial equity is the process of ensuring that everyone, regardless of race, has fair access to opportunities and resources, leading to improved outcomes for all."

 

[johnny karate]

"Racial equity is the process of ensuring that everyone, regardless of race, has fair access to opportunities and resources, leading to improved outcomes for all."

It's wild that you provided a quote supporting my argument and you think that it somehow supports yours.

 

[Hercules56]

It's wild that you provided a quote supporting my argument and you think that it somehow supports yours.

If the outcome is not improved, equity is not achieved.

 

[arthwollipot]

Such as?

How do we know that less than 21% of orchestral musicians in America are from minorities? We count them, of course.

If opportunity were equitable, we'd see correlation between those numbers and demographics. We don't. Therefore opportunity currently is not equitable.

 

[theprestige]

How do we know that less than 21% of orchestral musicians in America are from minorities? We count them, of course.

If opportunity were equitable, we'd see correlation between those numbers and demographics. We don't. Therefore opportunity currently is not equitable.

Doesn't follow. Different subcultures value different things. Equal opportunity isn't the only factor in equal outcome.

If you want more minorities to be admitted to the highest ranks of classical musicianship, you have to convince minorities that this is something they should value and work towards.

Which, why would you bother? Maybe classical music is a white people thing, and on its way out.

 

[arthwollipot]

Doesn't follow. Different subcultures value different things. Equal opportunity isn't the only factor in equal outcome.

How about letting those subcultures decide for themselves? Clearly at least some members of subcultures want to take advantage of the opportunity.

If you want more minorities to be admitted to the highest ranks of classical musicianship, you have to convince minorities that this is something they should value and work towards.

The whole point is to give people the opportunity to value and work towards it.

Which, why would you bother? Maybe classical music is a white people thing, and on its way out.

Maybe it is, and if that's the case we'd see fewer white people doing it too.

 

[Trausti]

How do we know that less than 21% of orchestral musicians in America are from minorities? We count them, of course.

If opportunity were equitable, we'd see correlation between those numbers and demographics. We don't. Therefore opportunity currently is not equitable.

This is totally blank slate thinking.

 

[bruto]

Doesn't follow. Different subcultures value different things. Equal opportunity isn't the only factor in equal outcome.

If you want more minorities to be admitted to the highest ranks of classical musicianship, you have to convince minorities that this is something they should value and work towards.

Which, why would you bother? Maybe classical music is a white people thing, and on its way out.

If that were the case, one might expect the diversity programs in question to fizzle out. I haven't been following closely on this particular issue, but I do know that classical orchestras were de facto segregated for a very long time. And I was under the impression that the program in question here is aimed at providing minority musicians with an opportunity to play with the marine band, not to play in it. This is not an attempt to short-circuit the hiring process of the band itself.

I wonder if when Wynton Marsalis plays Tartini he thinks to himself, "damn, I should have listened to theprestige before I practiced this crap."

 

[johnny karate]

If the outcome is not improved, equity is not achieved

Vague to the point of being meaningless.

 

[johnny karate]

This is totally blank slate thinking.

Thanks for the input, person who voted to destroy the economy. It is valued and appreciated.

 

[Trausti]

Thanks for the input, person who voted to destroy the economy. It is valued and appreciated.

You're definding the blank slate? I give you the 2024 US International Math Olympiad team, who took first place. White people (especially women) are underrepresented. Why? Lack of opportunity.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

You're definding the blank slate? I give you the 2024 US International Math Olympiad team, who took first place. White people (especially women) are underrepresented. Why? Lack of opportunity.

You present no analysis of any dynamics at work, so whether or not opportunity is constrained is an open question. No question that different groups and individuals value different things, such that you get over and under representation via natural as opposed to artificial causes, and that is fine and dandy. How to differentiate? Gosh, maybe not trashing the idea of structural racism such that the systems in play in any given dynamic might be subject to proper scrutiny. Critical Race Theory is not an anti-White political philosophy, much to the clamoring chagrin of... structural racists.

 

[jt512]

If opportunity were equitable, we'd see correlation between those numbers and demographics.

Assumed without evidence.

Actually, assumed in the face of contradictory evidence. What percentage of kindergarten teachers are male?

 

[Lisbeth]

Morgan Freeman doesn't want a Black History Month.