Split Thread Diversity Equity and Inclusion and merit in employment etc

[Aridas]

If DEI fails to increase minority representation at a certain job without compromising on quality of candidate, do you believe it was unsuccessful?

Personally, I'd say that that wouldn't be a hard position to defend, even if it doesn't even begin to address everything that's been lumped into DEI, whether with good intentions or ill intentions. DEI, in principle, is most fundamentally about making sure that everyone actually gets a fair chance, after all. Those like Jackie Robinson are pretty much shining examples of why DEI has value.

 

[Hercules56]

Why do you think that's the metric for success?

I asked a question.

I am assuming that the purpose of dei policies is to increase minority representation where it is felt that they are underrepresented.

And failure to increase representation would be seen as a lack of success.

 

[johnny karate]

Hmmm, it appears that sometimes DEI actually does mean loosening job requirements.

FDNY drops physical test requirement amid low female hiring rate

The Fire Department has stopped requiring probationary firefighters to pass a job-related physical-skills test before getting hired — a move that critics derided as a lowering of standards. The mov…

nypost.com

Proposal to recruit more women firefighters raises safety concerns

State lawmakers are considering a plan to attract more female firefighters, but critics say it could put fire crews – and the public – in danger.

bronx.news12.com

You're going to need to provide some data that establishes those specific requirements are necessary to perform the job, particularly when we're talking about a fire department rife with discrimination issues.

 

[johnny karate]

I asked a question.

I am assuming that the purpose of dei policies is to increase minority representation where it is felt that they are underrepresented.

And failure to increase representation would be seen as a lack of success.

You assume incorrectly.

 

[dudalb]

And all of the problems ended then, and there were no further consequences and everybody lived happily ever after. The end.

Get serious.

Hey, I noticed that a standard Trump supporter tactic is to deny anybody is a racist unless he wears a white hooded robe with a Nazi Armband and waves a burning cross. Ignore the more subtle forms of bigotry.

 

[johnny karate]

Tell me you've never hired anyone, without telling me you've never hired anyone.

If there's anyone whose expertise at judging the value of other people I'm willing to accept, it's definitely a Trump voter.

 

[Aridas]

I asked a question.

I am assuming that the purpose of dei policies is to increase minority representation where it is felt that they are underrepresented.

And failure to increase representation would be seen as a lack of success.

That's a bit pointless to ask, then? You're pretty much creating your own question and answer there. A lot's been lumped into DEI, whether by those with good intentions or by those with ill intentions. You are thus correct in what you say, but only really when a rather specific subset of what's been lumped in is what's actually in question, and also incorrect when it's not that specific subset.

 

[Hercules56]

You're going to need to provide some data that establishes those specific requirements are necessary to perform the job, particularly when we're talking about a fire department rife with discrimination issues.

Are you suggesting these requirements were created to keep out women, and are completely arbitrary and not necessary for the job at hand?

You're going to need to show me some research and data proving that the requirements are unnecessary in order to be a successful and useful firefighter.

 

[Hercules56]

Firefighter has to carry around a minimum amount of equipment. And they have to be able to carry a human body to safety.

That requires a certain level of strength.

That means all applicants have to be able to carry the standard amount of equipment and also carry out I guess the weight of an average human being.

 

[Aridas]

Firefighter has to carry around a minimum amount of equipment. And they have to be able to carry a human body to safety.

That requires a certain level of strength.

That means all applicants have to be able to carry the standard amount of equipment and also carry out I guess the weight of an average human being.

After a quick check, it's probably worth noting that many firefighters are no longer teaching or being taught to use the fireman's carry because of the likelihood for back injuries (even for strong firefighters). Firefighters may work together to carry people, of course, and there are a couple methods taught to drag unconscious people. Those options are both much less likely to cause injury and require significantly less raw power.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The firefighters carry hasn't been used in the UK for years. It can cause injury to the carrier and further injure a casualty.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The US Naval Academy has removed nearly 400 books from its library after being told by the office of the defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, to review and get rid of any that promote diversity, equity and inclusion, US officials said on Tuesday.

US Naval Academy removes 400 books from library in anti-diversity purge

School officials told by Pete Hegseth to review books as part of administration’s attacks on DEI

www.theguardian.com

 

[arthwollipot]

Is there a shortage of applicants?

There is a shortage of applicants from minorities, yes.

 

[arthwollipot]

The US Naval Academy has removed nearly 400 books from its library after being told by the office of the defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, to review and get rid of any that promote diversity, equity and inclusion, US officials said on Tuesday.

Historically, the side that has a policy of banning books has never been the good side.

 

[Hercules56]

There is a shortage of applicants from minorities, yes.

How is that determined?

 

[arthwollipot]

How is that determined?

A variety of ways.

 

[Hercules56]

A variety of ways.

Such as?

 

[Hlafordlaes]

If DEI fails to increase minority representation at a certain job without compromising on quality of candidate, do you believe it was unsuccessful?

That's overly simplistic. As johnny karate has pointed out, the purpose of DEI is to increase the pool of candidates. In my view, that further includes removal of all artificial barriers to academic, sports and general intellectual achievement that can be ascribed to policy error, bias, or correctable structural causes. All three of those causes are, in principle, realistically manageable, or can be compensated for (quality control, law). In short, make sure all your Einsteins get a reasonable opportunity to develop, then to be potentially chosen on merit, thus maximizing societal returns. Furthemore, those barriers that result from systemic bias are appalling and an affront to democratic principle.

Addendum
Maximizing the quality of the candidate pool should be considered part of what I refer to as full-spectrum capitalism, in that returns on not only physical and monetary capital, but also intellectual capital (human, artificial and IP stock), customer capital (relationships), and social capital (company and brand reputation; see Musk-Tesla), if managed properly, maximize returns on financial capital in the mid and long term. From a societal point of view, this is why education has traditionally been seen as key, its quality maximized.

Indeed, any company today selling products or services that can be subject to development or to replacement by alternatives needs to understand the real business they are in is in managing their intellectual capital stock, its inputs, and its quality control. From that, products and services can be seen as use cases of the output from core company competencies, targeted at or tailored to the users in those cases. (Somewhat fuzzier in consumer goods, as FMCG and entertainment are oft driven by the fadish and flimsy, built on ideas that go poof later. Still brand capital, tho.)

Unless you think AI will reach AGI (I do not) and that robots can do it all (I agree in principle), managing intellectual capital is key. If you want rich LLMs to make your AI more intelligent, you'll still need to feed it human intelligence. The rapid 0-to-100 rise of AI is perceived as wondrous, yet how will growth occur without new data? Tuning/feeding AI systems and their quality control appear to be tasks that will be around for a while.

 

[Hercules56]

Equity is one of the goals of DEI.

How is that goal achieved if all that is created is equal opportunity but no actual results?

 

[johnny karate]

Are you suggesting these requirements were created to keep out women, and are completely arbitrary and not necessary for the job at hand?

You're going to need to show me some research and data proving that the requirements are unnecessary in order to be a successful and useful firefighter.

Yeah, I'm not obligated to prove the negative of your claim. Definitely not how it works.