Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[theprestige]

I get the competing in women's sports.

For avoidance of doubt: Do you think men should not be granted the right to compete in women's sports on the basis of their say-so alone?

At the same time, sports organizations are obsessed with statistics and can make their own rules without government interference.

Yes. I'm talking about rights in public policy. The debate over trans rights is in part a debate over what rights the government should recognize and enforce for trans people.

For example, should the government recognize and enforce a right for a man to compete in women's sports, even if sports organizations disagree?

And there's still the same questions for the other things I listed: Women's prisons, shelters, etc.

 

[Ziggurat]

This is the definition I'm using:

Autogynephilia. Autogynephilia (derived from Greek for "love of oneself as a woman") is a term coined by Blanchard for "a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female", intending for the term to refer to "the full gamut of erotically arousing cross-gender behaviors and fantasies".

You really should source your quotes. And that sounds a lot like a fetish to me. Perhaps your confusion isn't with the definition of "autogynephilia", but with the definition of "fetish".

No, that's not correct either, using this definition you were still wrong about autogynephilia irrespective of what "fetish" means. Considering yourself to be a woman is not the same as being aroused by the thought of being a woman.

I never said it was.

No, but you implied I was labelling trans identity in general as being a fetish. I was proving that false by counter-example.

Then why bring it up at all?

Because of what you were implying about my position.

 

[Mycroft]

For avoidance of doubt: Do you think men should not be granted the right to compete in women's sports on the basis of their say-so alone?

<snip>

For example, should the government recognize and enforce a right for a man to compete in women's sports, even if sports organizations disagree?

I can't imagine how letting a sports organization make their own decisions without government interference can be misinterpreted.

And there's still the same questions for the other things I listed: Women's prisons, shelters, etc.

If a transwoman needed to go to prison, I would put her in a woman's prison. If a transwoman needed a shelter, I would put her in a woman's shelter. If a transwoman needed to use a public bathroom, I would have her use a woman's bathroom.

 

[Mycroft]

You really should source your quotes. And that sounds a lot like a fetish to me. Perhaps your confusion isn't with the definition of "autogynephilia", but with the definition of "fetish".

No, that's not correct either, using this definition you were still wrong about autogynephilia irrespective of what "fetish" means. Considering yourself to be a woman is not the same as being aroused by the thought of being a woman.

I was using the Google definition. If you think I should use a different definition, show it to me and we can talk about it.

No, but you implied I was labelling trans identity in general as being a fetish. I was proving that false by counter-example.

I don't agree I implied that, but if you think I was I am happy we have the opportunity for a correction.

Because of what you were implying about my position.

That it's a made-up issue solely to discredit trans-people? I'm saying it outright and not implying anything.

 

[Thermal]

[Autogynephilia] is classified as a sexual fetish in DSM-5.

Not so. In DSM-5, text revised edition, autogynephilia is mentioned as a one word aside twice. Pages 517 and 799, if you want to check. In it's first mention on p517, it is breifly defined as "autogynephilia (i.e., sexual arousal associated with the thought or image of oneself as a woman)."

https://www.mredscircleoftrust.com/storage/app/media/DSM%205%20TR.pdf

The more I am reading about this, the more I am inclined to call bull ◊◊◊◊ on every mother ◊◊◊◊◊◊ using the term in this thread. Y'all are so far off with what it is that I don't think it's an accident anymore.

 

[Mycroft]

I don't know about you, or if you have children or grand children, but I don't want my daughters or granddaughters being followed into the female safe spaces they use, by the types of individuals described here https://transcrimeuk.com/

Wow. A website solely dedicated to cherry-picking trans criminals. Nothing bigoted about that.

 

[Ziggurat]

I can't imagine how letting a sports organization make their own decisions without government interference can be misinterpreted.

How do you manage that with schools, where the sports organizations are run by government?

What should public school sports do?

If a transwoman needed to go to prison, I would put her in a woman's prison.

Who counts as a transwoman? What if they're in prison for raping a woman? What if they rape a female prisoner in prison?

These are not hypothetical questions, they have happened.

If a transwoman needed a shelter, I would put her in a woman's shelter.

What if the woman's shelter doesn't want the transwoman, because the transwoman is a biologically intact male?

If a transwoman needed to use a public bathroom, I would have her use a woman's bathroom.

Even if they're a child molester? Would you want a biologically intact male who self-identifies as a woman, and who has a history of sexual assaults against children, to share a bathroom with your child? Again, that's not a hypothetical question.

I don't think you're actually aware of the state of things, nor do I think you have given any serious consideration to these issues.

 

[Mycroft]

Not so. In DSM-5, text revised edition, autogynephilia is mentioned as a one word aside twice. Pages 517 and 799, if you want to check. In it's first mention on p517, it is breifly defined as "autogynephilia (i.e., sexual arousal associated with the thought or image of oneself as a woman)."

https://www.mredscircleoftrust.com/storage/app/media/DSM%205%20TR.pdf

The more I am reading about this, the more I am inclined to call bull ◊◊◊◊ on every mother ◊◊◊◊◊◊ using the term in this thread. Y'all are so far off with what it is that I don't think it's an accident anymore.

I tried to read backwards in this thread, but when the bleeding from my eyes made it impossible to see anymore, I gave up.

I'm very glad I'm not the only one who thinks this term is ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

 

[Ziggurat]

Wow. A website solely dedicated to cherry-picking trans criminals. Nothing bigoted about that.

The problem with cherry picking isn't that cherries are irrelevant, it's that they don't tell you how representative the cherries are of all the fruits out there. But you don't always need to know how representative they are. Sometimes, knowing what exists is enough. This is one of those cases. You can try to dismiss this as bigotry, but that's just sticking your head in the sand, a justification for ignoring a problem just because you don't have a rigorous statistical sample.

You shouldn't need one in order to recognize the reality of the problem here.

 

[Ziggurat]

I was using the Google definition. If you think I should use a different definition, show it to me and we can talk about it.

I'm OK with using that definition, but some of your prior statements were wrong using that definition.

That it's a made-up issue solely to discredit trans-people? I'm saying it outright and not implying anything.

I keep hearing trans advocates say that all these problems (like transwomen raping women in prison) are made up, and then they happen.

Your incredulity means nothing to me.

 

[Mycroft]

How do you manage that with schools, where the sports organizations are run by government?

What should public school sports do?

I think what they will do is look at the statistics. If all the top spots are held by transwomen, I think they will change the rules. If that doesn’t happen, then there is no need to change the rules.

Who counts as a transwoman? What if they're in prison for raping a woman? What if they rape a female prisoner in prison?

These are not hypothetical questions, they have happened.

Rape should not be an accepted part of our prison system. Full stop. It’s not a trans issue, it’s a rape issue.

What if the woman's shelter doesn't want the transwoman, because the transwoman is a biologically intact male?

What rule would you make?

Even if they're a child molester? Would you want a biologically intact male who self-identifies as a woman, and who has a history of sexual assaults against children, to share a bathroom with your child? Again, that's not a hypothetical question.

Child molesters use public bathrooms. Is it better for a child molester to use the boys bathroom where they have access to young boys instead? Why or why not.

I don't think you're actually aware of the state of things, nor do I think you have given any serious consideration to these issues.

I think I can separate the hysteria from the real issues.

If we’re going to punish all trans-people because some trans-people are child molesters, then we should punish all people because some people are child molesters. How about having no public bathrooms at all, would that solve the problem?

 

[Mycroft]

I'm OK with using that definition, but some of your prior statements were wrong using that definition.

Feel free to discuss.

I keep hearing trans advocates say that all these problems (like transwomen raping women in prison) are made up, and then they happen.

Rape happens in prisons, is it somehow worse if the perpetuator is trans? Solve the rape issue and there is no trans issue.

Your incredulity means nothing to me.

I think it means something.

 

[Mycroft]

The problem with cherry picking isn't that cherries are irrelevant, it's that they don't tell you how representative the cherries are of all the fruits out there. But you don't always need to know how representative they are. Sometimes, knowing what exists is enough. This is one of those cases. You can try to dismiss this as bigotry, but that's just sticking your head in the sand, a justification for ignoring a problem just because you don't have a rigorous statistical sample.

You shouldn't need one in order to recognize the reality of the problem here.

I could start a website featuring the criminals of any group, and it would properly be identified as bigoted. Black people? Jews? Mexicans? Yep, all of those would be bigoted.

 

[theprestige]

I can't imagine how letting a sports organization make their own decisions without government interference can be misinterpreted.

I can, but I hope you're right. Here's how I interpret it:

You believe women's sports should not be required by law to admit transwomen; rather, such organizations should be legally protected if anyone complains about such discrimination.

Is my interpretation of what you believe correct?

If a transwoman needed to go to prison, I would put her in a woman's prison. If a transwoman needed a shelter, I would put her in a woman's shelter. If a transwoman needed to use a public bathroom, I would have her use a woman's bathroom.

Fair enough. I have two questions:

If you don't believe it's necessary for sports, why do you believe it's necessary for those other things?

How would you distinguish between men and transwomen, for the purpose of applying your policy?

 

[Ziggurat]

I could start a website featuring the criminals of any group, and it would properly be identified as bigoted. Black people? Jews? Mexicans? Yep, all of those would be bigoted.

Depends on the point. Are any of those groups trying to exploit loopholes in the law based on their group identity in order to commit crimes? Also, do you not understand the difference between a group defined by immutable characteristics and a group defined by self identification?

You're pretending that there isn't a problem. And there obviously is.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm pretty sure I understand it fine. It seems natural to me for a transwoman to fantasize about having sex as a woman regardless of where they are in the transition process.

There's a difference here that perhaps you're not quite gleaning.

You're talking about them fantasizing about having sex as a female.
AGP is about getting sexually aroused by imagining themselves as female - not about having sex, but just looking like, being treated like a female. And it's almost always being treated the way they think females should be treated... and that's very rarely the way that actual females want to be treated. It's frequently tied to being treated like a bimbo, a ditz, a slut, a sexual object, and a receptacle for male lust. That's not at all how actual females want to be treated.

 

[Ziggurat]

Rape happens in prisons, is it somehow worse if the perpetuator is trans?

The risk of rape from putting a male rapist in prison with females is worse that the risk from putting females in prison with other females. Why is this not obvious?

Solve the rape issue and there is no trans issue.

How?

Seriously, how do you prevent a male prisoner from raping female prisoners that he is housed with? Put him in solitary? If you do, there's no point, and if you don't, then I don't see a way of ensuring it doesn't happen. In the meantime, while you're trying to figure out how to do that and then actually implement those changes, why do you want to keep housing male rapists with female prisoners?

That is frankly monstrous of you, and I cannot take any of your appeals to any sort of morality on this topic seriously. This is just a game to you.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I said the first part, you added the bolded part. Please be honest about what ideas I'm expressing. I'm right here to correct you when you get it wrong.

You're not correcting me though. I have this definition correct and accurate, you're the one who has it wrong.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This is the definition I'm using:

Autogynephilia. Autogynephilia (derived from Greek for "love of oneself as a woman") is a term coined by Blanchard for "a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female", intending for the term to refer to "the full gamut of erotically arousing cross-gender behaviors and fantasies".

You're adding your own inferences, and unfortunately your inferences are incorrect.

You're treating this as if it's fantasizing about having sex as a female. That's not what it is - I'm female, and when I do have sexual fantasies, I envision myself as being female... but I'm not aroused by the thought of myself as female. Those are very different things.

Think about it this way:

Do you ever fantasize about yourself as a sexual object, and think "OMG, I'm so manly, my penis is so big, and it's such a turn on to imagine thrusting away, and I'm so hot when I'm turned on, just look how hot I am:"?

 

[Emily's Cat]

If a transwoman needed to go to prison, I would put her in a woman's prison. If a transwoman needed a shelter, I would put her in a woman's shelter. If a transwoman needed to use a public bathroom, I would have her use a woman's bathroom.

Even if said transwoman has a penis and testicles, full beard, and male physique?

What if females object? Do we not have a right to exclude males from spaces where we are naked or vulnerable?