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Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

Your post above contains false and incomplete or illogical statements.

The final acquittal, as previously discussed on this site at great length, was based upon the accused - Knox and Sollecito - not having committed the act of murder/rape of Kercher. CSC and other Italian court judgments applying CPP Article 530, paragraph 2 are frequently used in acquittals in Italy since the reform of the CPP in 1988.

From the Brocardi law firm commentary on CPP Article 530 and the formulas required in the judgment of acquittal:



Google translation:



Your inability to locate other instances of the use of CPP Article 530, paragraph 2, simply reflects a lack of information on your part.

The application of CPP Article 530, paragraph 2, is limited only to those cases where it is applicable. Recall that CPP Article 533 requires that the judge pronounce a sentence of conviction if and only if there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty. In case of reasonable doubt, the common approach is acquittal under CPP Article 530, paragraph 2. However, dismissals under other provisions of Italian law, such as CPP Articles 529 and 531, are also lawful, depending on the circumstances of a particular case.

See:

Please, don't confuse Vixen with facts.
 
Oh dear. You really believe that criminal culpability is just a matter of personal opinion. All these hundreds of years of developing a justice system and we still have people loose who think all you have to do is shake your head and deny a criminal trial has any meaning, purpose or function. All that matters is a mob of people forming a fan club and that supersedes the courts.
Oh, dear. Why do you make such incredibly outlandish and nonsensical statements? It does nothing to support your credibility. Credibility is like a credit score: It takes a long time to establish and can be destroyed very quickly.
 
Nobody said it 'proves' anything. Just a fact* that this shoeprint was found at the scene int he victim's blood.


*Fact meaning:
Law
the truth about events as opposed to interpretation.



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Um...no. I suggest you read Massei, Hellmann, and Nencini. I've already provided the quotes from Massei and Nencini. Read it and try to remember it before you repeat the "woman's size 37 " nonsense again.
 
PNW? Pacific North West...? You feel a regional affiliation with Knox? ("USA! USA!") It explains why you have no debate to offer; just some kind of gung-ho jingoism that defies debate but you just "feel it in your guts".



Bless your heart.

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I'm from the PNW and I have debated you for years with facts and quotes from the court records. Don't try this crap with me.

Bless your heart.
 
"The formulas "the fact does not exist" and "the accused did not commit the act" represent the broadest acquittal, denying the historical basis of the accusation.!

Whilst the legal template might indeed say that, the facts of the case established at the merits hearings/appeal stage remain unchanged because facts cannot be appealed against.

So all of the facts found remain. And this is reflected in Marasca-Bruno's final motivational report, in which they even add a fact of their own: that Knox accused Lumumba to cover up for Guede.

In addition, all of the MR's confirm the burglary was staged, Knox had the victim's blood on her hand and that she WAS present as of the time of the murder.


Can't wish it away.
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Perhaps it's not surprising that your post above continues to show gross ignorance of Italian law through its false statements. It also contains false statements about the specific "judicial facts" in the MRs, but to keep my post relatively short I'm going to discuss only the Italian law issues in this reply.

You make the absurd and false statement that "facts cannot be appealed against". This statement is false for: 1. an appeal from a first-instance court to a Court of Appeals and 2. an appeal from a Court of Appeals (or first-instance court) to the Supreme Court of Cassation (CSC).

The content of an appeal from a first-instance court to a Court of Appeals is governed by CPP Article 581. Here's a Google translation of the relevant paragraphs of that article:

1. The appeal is lodged with a written document indicating the contested provision, its date and the judge who issued it, with the specific statement, under penalty of inadmissibility:

a) of the heads or points of the decision to which the appeal refers;

b)of the evidence whose non-existence, failure to take or failure or erroneous assessment is inferred;

c) of the requests, including investigative ones;

d) of the reasons, with an indication of the legal reasons and factual elements that support each request.

1-bis.The appeal is inadmissible for lack of specificity of the reasons when, for each request, the critical observations in relation to the factual or legal reasons expressed in the contested provision are not stated in a precise and explicit manner, with reference to the heads and points of the decision to which the appeal refers.

I've emphasized with highlighting and italics the reference to "facts" including "evidence", "erroneous assessment [of evidence] is inferred", "requests [for] investigation", "factual elements", and "factual reasons". Note that an assessment of evidence or an inference based upon evidence is a "fact" in the meaning of "judicial fact".

So Italian law allows "facts" to be appealed from a first-instance court to a Court of Appeal.

The Italian law for an appeal to the CSC is governed by CPP Article 606; some of its language is more general than that of CPP Article 581. Here's a Google translation of the relevant sections of CPP Article 606:

1. An appeal to the Court of Cassation may be filed for the following reasons:

b) failure to comply with or incorrect application of the criminal law or other legal provisions, which must be taken into account in the application of the criminal law;

d) failure to obtain decisive evidence, when the party has requested it during the course of the trial, limited to the cases provided for in Article 495, paragraph 2 [that is, the defense is entitled by law to offer evidence against each item of evidence presented by the prosecution, and vice versa, and each is entitled to appeal if this condition is not met during trial];
e) lack, contradictory nature or manifest illogicality of the motivation [report], when the defect is evident from the text of the contested provision or from other procedural documents specifically indicated in the grounds for appeal.
The general terminology of CPP Article 606 needs some commentary to show how it links to "facts" or "judicial facts".

Italian law governs the treatment of "facts" or "judicial facts" in a trial. Evidence (and thus facts) derived by influencing or overcoming the self-determination of an individual (for example, coercion) shall not be used in a trial (CPP Article 188 with 191). CPP Article 191 prohibits the use of evidence (and thus facts) gathered in violation of prohibitions set by (procedural) law. CPP Article 192, paragraph 2 governs the generation of facts (or judicial facts) from evidence: a fact may not be inferred from evidence unless the evidence is serious, precise, and consistent. CPP Article 2, paragraph 3 prohibits the use of statements from a person accused of the same crime, whether or not in joined proceedings, unless reliable evidence corroborates such statements. Thus, CPP Article 606, paragraph 1, section b applies to "facts" or "judicial facts".

CPP Article 606, paragraph 1, section d applies to whether the defense has been allowed to offer all relevant evidence to counter the evidence presented by the prosecution (and vice versa). Since "facts" or "judicial facts" are inferred from evidence, those facts are challenged by an appeal under this provision of procedural law as well.

CPP Article 606, paragraph 1, section e applies to a broad range of potential appeal points relating to "facts" or "judicial facts" in a motivation report or other procedural document. If the derivation of a fact or judicial fact is alleged to be illogical (unreasonable), or if there is a contradiction between facts (judicial facts) or in the derivation (inference) of a fact from evidence, or if a relevant fact is missing or insufficient to support the MR's argument, then an appeal under this provision is an appeal on a "fact" or a "judicial fact".

In conclusion, your statement that Italian law does not allow an appeal on the basis of an allegation related to a fact or judicial fact, whether to a Court of Appeal or the CSC, is false.
 
Heheheheh.

The police originally claimed all the bloody shoeprints were a "perfect match" for Raff's Nike
Air Force One shoes. They turned to belong to Guede's Outbreak 2 shoes. Red face 1 for the police.

The police originally claimed Evidence "A" shoeprint in Kercher's room belonged Raffaele, too. Nope...it belonged to Guede, too. Red faced 2 for the police.

Boemia, for the prosecution, claimed a partial print belonged to an ASICS woman's shoe, size 37. No ASICS shoes belonging to Amanda were ever found.

But Vinci, for the defense, found it was a partial print of Guede's Outbreak 2, not a woman's shoe.
Despite your disingenuous claim, not even Massei found that the partial print belonged to Knox or even to an ASICS woman's size 37:

Nor did Hellmann. Not even Nencini disagreed with them:


But hey, you just keep on and ignore inconvenient facts.


You are simply regurgitating the defence's paid for talking points to try to raise doubt on the prosecution's case. The court preferred the prosecution's case so your arguing 'what the defense said' over and over is where you keep going astray. Vinci was PAID to try to rubbish Boemia's perfectly independent expert scientific objective expertise as to what shoe the bloodstained shoe print under the body was. It was a ladies ASIC size 37. Guede's shoe size was 45 and Sollecito's 42 so I doubt either managed to squeeze their plates of meat into a ladies trainers to try to incriminate Knox.

Please differentiate facts from your preferred fiction.




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If you could differentiate "judicial facts" from things that really happened, this thread would simply stop.


The subforum is 'Trials and Errors' so what comes out at trial is all we have as criminals rarely confess.

Given it is established that the pair were present at the murder scene, I can only surmise people arguing against this are coming from a position of irrationality, possibly based on feelings of local pride and national honour. But justice is cold. It is not interested in local pride or personal characteristics.



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The subforum is 'Trials and Errors' so what comes out at trial is all we have as criminals rarely confess.

Given it is established that the pair were present at the murder scene, I can only surmise people arguing against this are coming from a position of irrationality, possibly based on feelings of local pride and national honour. But justice is cold. It is not interested in local pride or personal characteristics.



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No, it is not 'established' that the pair were present at the crime scene. That is what the prosecution(s) alleged. What you're quoting from is part of the list that the final ISC report made, listing that as one of the prosecution's (at that time, Crini within the Nencini court) case. They'd not proven or demonstrated that.

Yet what was of interest to the final acquitting court, was that even if that allegation had been true, it still did not address the fact that there had been no forensic presence of either RS or AK in the murder room, which made all other speculation or allegation moot.

The nuance to this is that no one, prosecution, defence, or internet lurker, denies at all that AK and or RS had been at the crime scene. The issue is, when was it that they were there? No one denies that they were the ones to discover that the cottage had been burgled, and they called the police as a result.

The real issue is, were they there at the time of the murder? No, they weren't. Rudy Guede was, by his own admission.
 
1. "Let's concentrate on the Kercher murder instead trying to absurdly claim that Knox was framed by Mignini.'

I did not make, nor have I ever, made such a claim. I do not believe Mignini ever "framed" Knox. I believe he was Knox suspect-centered and led a tunnel-visioned, inept, and incompetent investigation from at least Nov. 3. But, I do think he believed she was guilty.
Thank you for so patiently pointing out again (and again and again) that nobody here claims the Italians wanted to "frame" Knox. What I find so hilarious is that a certain someone has clung to this silliness for years & years, all the while not seeing the absurdity in "Knox will always be guilty" slammed up against the inconvenience that she's been free for nearly 15 years. And the only justification for this last 10 years is the big bad USA exerting its "influence" over poor little Italy. Never attempting to explain how or why any of the key players in this fiasco are so important to USA's, um, interests:ROFLMAO:.
 
You are simply regurgitating the defence's paid for talking points to try to raise doubt on the prosecution's case. The court preferred the prosecution's case so your arguing 'what the defense said' over and over is where you keep going astray. Vinci was PAID to try to rubbish Boemia's perfectly independent expert scientific objective expertise as to what shoe the bloodstained shoe print under the body was. It was a ladies ASIC size 37. Guede's shoe size was 45 and Sollecito's 42 so I doubt either managed to squeeze their plates of meat into a ladies trainers to try to incriminate Knox.

Please differentiate facts from your preferred fiction.




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Um. No. You wrote: "Er, the forensic scientists identified the make as a Ladies ACIS size 37."

I posted the LEGAL FACT found by Massei, Hellmann, and Nencini that "In fact, as was shown at the first trial, it cannot be ruled out that the pillowcase was trodden upon only by Rudy Hermann Guede's left shod foot, ruling out a smaller foot belonging to the defendant Amanda Marie Knox,"

What part of the quotes I provided previously and again here are you not understanding? NO court accepted it was made by an ASICS woman's shoe.

"the defence's paid for talking points"

LOL. You do know that Boemia and Rinaldi, the prosecution's paid for experts, were hired as outside consultants, don't you? Experts are paid to testify. Or do you think they do it or free?
 
Thank you for so patiently pointing out again (and again and again) that nobody here claims the Italians wanted to "frame" Knox. What I find so hilarious is that a certain someone has clung to this silliness for years & years, all the while not seeing the absurdity in "Knox will always be guilty" slammed up against the inconvenience that she's been free for nearly 15 years. And the only justification for this last 10 years is the big bad USA exerting its "influence" over poor little Italy. Never attempting to explain how or why any of the key players in this fiasco are so important to USA's, um, interests:ROFLMAO:.
Don't forget, the mafia is also behind this acquittal because sharing the same last name as a criminal in Canada and going to the DR on holiday are absolute proof of a mafia connection! Oh, I forgot...Dr. Sollecito went to Rocco's memorial and Vixen provided photographic proof him coming out of the church...er...courthouse in another city in a different year.:ROFLMAO:
 
No, it is not 'established' that the pair were present at the crime scene. That is what the prosecution(s) alleged. What you're quoting from is part of the list that the final ISC report made, listing that as one of the prosecution's (at that time, Crini within the Nencini court) case. They'd not proven or demonstrated that.

Yet what was of interest to the final acquitting court, was that even if that allegation had been true, it still did not address the fact that there had been no forensic presence of either RS or AK in the murder room, which made all other speculation or allegation moot.

The nuance to this is that no one, prosecution, defence, or internet lurker, denies at all that AK and or RS had been at the crime scene. The issue is, when was it that they were there? No one denies that they were the ones to discover that the cottage had been burgled, and they called the police as a result.

The real issue is, were they there at the time of the murder? No, they weren't. Rudy Guede was, by his own admission.
If I had to guess, the fact that it was NEVER established they were present at the crime scene at the time of the murder has been pointed out to Vixen at least 50 times, yet here she is again, repeating the same old tired nonsense. The Marasca court cited Amanda's interrogation statement as the reason to think she was there. However, since that statement was obtained by violating her rights, and since the statement itself is provably false, you'd think Vixen would accept it and move on. But nope... she's still repeating it, and likely will continue to do so till she goes on to meet her maker.

I am impressed with you Bill, for having the patience to go through this once again... though with Vixen it will be in one ear, out the other, as usual.
 
Thank you for so patiently pointing out again (and again and again) that nobody here claims the Italians wanted to "frame" Knox. What I find so hilarious is that a certain someone has clung to this silliness for years & years, all the while not seeing the absurdity in "Knox will always be guilty" slammed up against the inconvenience that she's been free for nearly 15 years. And the only justification for this last 10 years is the big bad USA exerting its "influence" over poor little Italy. Never attempting to explain how or why any of the key players in this fiasco are so important to USA's, um, interests:ROFLMAO:.
I don't agree with this statement, since I believe that the evidence strongly suggests that the relevant Italian authorities intended to frame Knox and Sollecito, through the official misconduct of those authorities.

I don't know what posters here mean by "frame" - that is, what definition they are using. Here is a definition from a legal context:

The term "frame" can have two main meanings in legal contexts. First, it refers to the process of creating or organizing the content of a legal document. .... When a lawyer frames a document, they carefully consider the language and structure to ensure that it clearly conveys the intended message and meets legal standards.

The second meaning of "frame" is more serious and involves wrongdoing. It describes the act of making an innocent person appear guilty by manipulating evidence or circumstances. This can happen in criminal cases where someone might plant false evidence or create a misleading narrative to implicate someone who is actually innocent. This type of framing is a violation of justice and can lead to wrongful convictions, which is a significant concern in the legal system.
Source: https://www.legalbriefai.com/legal-terms/frame

I've read several objections to the use of the word "frame" to describe the official misconduct (including but not limited to failing to provide a lawyer, failing to provide a fair interpreter, and use of coercive methods) of the Italian police and prosecution in the Knox - Sollecito case. I believe that some of these objections relate to the use of a different definition or a misapprehension as to the legal status, even in Italy, of a suspect or an accused (the last term may be used to mean a defendant in a criminal case in Italy).

One objection seems to be that the police and prosecutor sincerely believed Knox and Sollecito to be guilty, even before the beginning of the impugned interrogation, and therefore the official misconduct could not by definition be "framing". However, under Italian law, a suspect or an accused is to be presumed innocent (Italian Constitution)*, provided with a defense lawyer, particularly during interrogations (CPP Articles 63 and 64), and not subjected to "methods or techniques which may influence the freedom of self-determination or alter the capacity to recall and evaluate facts" - that is, coercion to gather evidence is prohibited (CPP Article 188).

Another objection seems to be that the police and prosecutor were so incompetent that their official misconduct should be taken to be mistakes rather than intentional violations of Italian law, and therefore no "framing" occurred. My view is that the police and prosecutor were highly trained professionals who were careful to make their violations of Italian law seem to be excusable mistakes or otherwise covered, for example, by pretending to interrogate Knox and Sollecito as witnesses when in fact they were already suspects in the (undocumented) opinions of the police and prosecutor. It should be recalled that the prosecutor, Mignini, at the relevant time, was himself a defendant in a criminal case alleging abuse of his power as a prosecutor against several persons, including fellow prosecutors. He was pursuing what many would consider rather bizarre hunches as to the guilt of certain (innocent) individuals in an alleged conspiracy in the Monster of Florence murders. The charges against Mignini were dismissed because the length of the trials against him exceeded the time limit set under Italian law - this was due in part to the Italian judicial system initiating trials in a judicial district that included prosecutors or other judicial officials whom he had (allegedly) targeted with his (alleged) abuses of power. Mignini also had the Italian journalist Mario Spezi imprisoned on false charges of impeding Mignini's Monster of Florence investigation; that imprisonment was subsequently declared illegal.

In the Knox case, Migini questioned her following her impugned interrogation by the police. He would certainly have been aware that under Italian law CPP Article 63 she was entitled to a defense lawyer to be present at that point because of her first interrogation statement. It was his responsibility to not question her until she had that lawyer. According to Knox's statement in her memoir Free: My Search for Meaning, Knox told Mignini, in response to his question why she was crying and hitting her head, she complained that she had been hit on the head and yelled at (page 7). Mignini's legal duty would have been to initiate an independent investigation of Knox's complaint. He did not do so.

See:

* The suspect or accused can be subjected to security measures, such as detention, but only according to law and with the approval of a judge.
 
I highly doubt Vixen meant "framed" in any sense but the police/prosecution wrongfully prosecuting two people they knew/believed to be innocent.

I do agree that both the police and Mignini were already convinced of their guilt and were not just "witnesses informed of the facts" when they chose to neither record nor provide lawyers during the interrogation. They had a legal loophole, and they damn well used it. What proves this to me is the later repeated admissions by Mignini and the police that the two were already suspects before Nov. 5.
They didn't record Lumumba's interrogation or provide him with a lawyer either and they most certainly saw him as suspect when they raced out at dawn, handcuffed him, and took him to the questura.

Only "witnesses informed of the facts" my arse.
 
I highly doubt Vixen meant "framed" in any sense but the police/prosecution wrongfully prosecuting two people they knew/believed to be innocent.

I do agree that both the police and Mignini were already convinced of their guilt and were not just "witnesses informed of the facts" when they chose to neither record nor provide lawyers during the interrogation. They had a legal loophole, and they damn well used it. What proves this to me is the later repeated admissions by Mignini and the police that the two were already suspects before Nov. 5.
They didn't record Lumumba's interrogation or provide him with a lawyer either and they most certainly saw him as suspect when they raced out at dawn, handcuffed him, and took him to the questura.

Only "witnesses informed of the facts" my arse.
I should have added to my post that Sollecito was interrogated first, and according to his memoir* Honor Bound: My Journey to Hell and Back with Amanda Knox, the approach of the interrogators from the start if that interrogation was to get him to disavow his previous statements that Knox had been with him at the time of Kercher's death. That interrogation had some coercive elements as well. Again this shows that Knox was a suspect before the interrogation and is not inconsistent with the hypothesis that the police and prosecutor were seeking to frame Knox and perhaps Sollecito. The motivation of the authorities to jointly accuse Sollecito would be that as a co-accused, his alibi for her presence in his apartment at the relevant time would be devalued.

Also, whether his statement was true or not, Giobbi claimed in his testimony during the Masse court trial that he had planned having Knox and Sollecito come to the police station for special questioning. In fact, only Sollecito was invited, and Knox accompanied him because she feared to be left alone after Kercher was murdered, according to her first memoir, Waiting to be Heard.

* written with Andrew Gumbel
 
Once again, if you could differentiate between your "judicial facts" (which seem perhaps to be Italian for legal fictions) and things which really happened, there would be nothing left to disuss.

With all due respect, this is a subforum under 'Trials and Errors', Criminal Law - and all law, actually - is rules-based. Yes, this can be very dry, for those who prefer tabloid-style soundbites. People studying for the bar are encouraged to join debating societies to hone their skills in presenting a coherent and logical argument based on legal principles. You do have to be able to present an argument to the court at trial as to what your case is. Demanding blind faith in your POV without any reasoning is perhaps better suited to the 'Religion and Philosophy' subforum? Then you can tell people arguing law to shut up and 'just believe'.

SCENE: Royal Courts of Justice

PROSECUTOR (opening statement) M'Lud, the defendant before you today is charged with the murder of X on date Y at Z. The circumstances are these: ABC and the defendant is charged under Sections DCE and F of the various statutes.

DEFENCE COUNSEL, AmyStrange (for it is he) BWAHHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!! Rubbish! Confirmation bias!

JUDGE <fx bangs gavel> Order! Order! Sit down Mr AmyStrange, you will have an opportunity to present your case shortly.

<fx Prosecutor continues in similar eloquent presentation of the case vein for twenty minutes.>

JUDGE: Mr. AmyStrange, you may now make your opening submissions.

AmyStrange: Er, um, like I said, confirmation bias! Proves my point! Er. ... That's it.




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