Split Thread Diversity Equity and Inclusion and merit in employment etc

[theprestige]

Meanwhiile in the UK:

Tories urge justice secretary to reverse 'two-tier' sentencing changes

From April, an offender's ethnicity or faith will be a bigger factor in deciding whether to jail them.

www.bbc.com

The Sentencing Council, an independent body that oversees sentencing in the nation's courts, mandates special consideration be given to women and minorities. This effectively creates a "two-tier" justice system, that metes out harsher punishments for white men.

The complaint about the programs currently marching under the icon of DEI is that they go beyond even equality of outcome, landing squarely in overt racism.

---

The new guidelines are here:

Imposition of community and custodial sentences

www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk

You're looking for 3. Pre-sentence reports (PSRs). These are typically used to give the judge more background about the offender, and generally result in lighter sentences. Use of PSRs by the courts has declined. Here, the Council mandates that a PSR is "normally considered necessary" if the offender is a woman or minority person. Otherwise, the judge is free to determine that being a white male is information enough to proceed with sentencing.

(There is one loophole: A white male can necessitate a PSR if they disclose they are transgender.)

 

[Hercules56]

From Equity Arc's website. Literally the first thing below the logo:


*Source

From that source (which you should read):



Presumably you feel that this disproportionate lack of representation of minority groups in American orchestras is a good thing?

What about in the NHL? Should we sanction the NHL until they start being as colorful as America?

 

[theprestige]

No college clubs for rich white preppies have been shut down, have they?

Name three whites-only clubs currently recognized and supported by US colleges.

(Also, "rich white preppies" is racist language.)

 

[Hercules56]

Name three whites-only clubs currently recognized and supported by US colleges.

(Also, "rich white preppies" is racist language.)

Name three non-whites only clubs in American colleges.

 

[theprestige]

Name three non-whites only clubs in American colleges.

None; presumably they've all been shut down. Problem solved!

 

[Hercules56]

None; presumably they've all been shut down. Problem solved!

No, they never existed. And no, only DEI clubs at West Point were shut down.

 

[Ziggurat]

Presumably you feel that this disproportionate lack of representation of minority groups in American orchestras is a good thing?

It's a thing. I don't know whether it's good or bad, because I don't know why it is, and I doubt you do. And I'm not going to assume that the cause is racism. I don't assume that the cause for blacks being disproportionately over-represented in the NBA is racism. I certainly don't see complaints about that. It seems that proportionately more black children are interested in the NBA than the National Hockey League. If they are also proportionately less interested in playing in an orchestra, and if that's why they are under-represented, then why is that a problem? Moreover, why is racial discrimination a solution? In fact, regardless of the cause, why is racial discrimination a solution at all? If the cause is actually due to racial discrimination somewhere (again, not demonstrated), then why not actually remove that racial discrimination instead of layering more racial discrimination on top of it?

 

[bruto]

It's a thing. I don't know whether it's good or bad, because I don't know why it is, and I doubt you do.
And I'm not going to assume that the cause is racism. I don't assume that the cause for blacks being disproportionately over-represented in the NBA is racism. I certainly don't see complaints about that. It seems that proportionately more black children are interested in the NBA than the National Hockey League. If they are also proportionately less interested in playing in an orchestra, and if that's why they are under-represented, then why is that a problem? Moreover, why is racial discrimination a solution? In fact, regardless of the cause, why is racial discrimination a solution at all? If the cause is actually due to racial discrimination somewhere (again, not demonstrated), then why not actually remove that racial discrimination instead of layering more racial discrimination on top of it?

It certainly used to be. It was not until the 1960's that any black person was allowed to be a member of a major US symphony orchestra, and that was controversial and problematic when they traveled. It may not be the case now, but do you really expect a trend of long standing, with associated issues of career choice, school choice and admission, and cultural bias, to disappear in a generation?

You and others may have all sorts of good and even winning arguments for why DEI measures and attempts to overcome systemic bias may be a mistake, and one can make a case that an attempted cure is worse than what it attempts to cure. But to pretend that such bias can just disappear over night, or that it does not linger, is, I believe, a different matter.

 

[Hercules56]

Just because an orchestra or sports team or college club does not reflect the racial dynamics of the larger community, DOESNT mean racism and racist selection was involved.

 

[Ziggurat]

It certainly used to be. It was not until the 1960's that any black person was allowed to be a member of a major US symphony orchestra, and that was controversial and problematic when they traveled. It may not be the case now, but do you really expect a trend of long standing, with associated issues of career choice, school choice and admission, and cultural bias, to disappear in a generation?

Blind auditions have done a lot to remove racism from hiring at the orchestra level. That's a major change since the 1960's, and I'm all in favor of that. If blacks are still choosing not to go into orchestra, then why do we need to do anything about it? Why can't racial groups have different preferences? And again, even if you want to increase black participation, why is racial discrimination the proper method for achieving that? I don't think it is.

You and others may have all sorts of good and even winning arguments for why DEI measures and attempts to overcome systemic bias may be a mistake, and one can make a case that an attempted cure is worse than what it attempts to cure. But to pretend that such bias can just disappear over night, or that it does not linger, is, I believe, a different matter.

I'm not pretending that it disappeared overnight. That's one reason to keep using blind auditions. They prevent racial discrimination, they don't apply racial discrimination. The point isn't that there is no racism left, it's that racial discrimination isn't the proper remedy for racism. Racial discrimination encourages racism.

 

[jt512]

Which is what Equity Arc provides. If you take a look at their website. Right under "Get Involved" heading it literally says "Help create opportunities for talented musicians of color".

No. They do not provide equal opportunity for all musicians. They provide opportunities only for "musicians of color."

Your definition of "equity" is wrong.

As you well know, whether you are willing to admit it or not, it is exactly the DEI definition of "equity."

But now, because it tries to provide opportunities for people of colour, a concert involving those people has been shut down...

No, not because they provide opportunities to people of color; because they only provide opportunities to people of color. That is literally exclusion.

- because they are people from historically marginalised groups.

No. Stop lying. The concert was not cancelled because the kids were from historically marginalized groups. The concert was cancelled because the federal government is cannot legally participate in a program that is racially discriminatory, which Equity Arc proudly is.

That right there is discrimination.

No. Equity Arc is discriminatory. If Equity Arc admitted kids without regard to race, that would (a) be actual inclusivity, and (b) those kids would be playing with the Marine Band right now.

That right there is exclusion.

No. Equity Arc is literally excluding white kids.

The DEI shut down order discriminates against minorities.

No. DEI discriminates against people who don't fall into certain preferred demographic categories. The DEI ban removed those preferences.

No college clubs for rich white preppies have been shut down, have they?

Yes, all college clubs in the US that discriminated by race were shut down decades ago. No US college or university receiving federal financial assistance (and that's just about all of them, including just about all private ones) would tolerate a race-exclusive club on its campus.

 

[arthwollipot]

I love how providing opportunities for kids who never had those opportunities before is framed as discrimination and exclusion. Totally flipping the narrative. But we can see through the rhetorical tactic, which is all it is.

 

[Trausti]

I love how providing opportunities for kids who never had those opportunities before is framed as discrimination and exclusion. Totally flipping the narrative. But we can see through the rhetorical tactic, which is all it is.

Oh, come on. No one here is against providing opportunities for kids. But telling a kid they don't get that opportunity because you don't like the kid's skin color is wrong.

 

[arthwollipot]

Oh, come on. No one here is against providing opportunities for kids. But telling a kid they don't get that opportunity because you don't like the kid's skin color is wrong.

Good. So both we agree that DEIA is important and should not be cut.

 

[Trausti]

Good. So both we agree that DEIA is important and should not be cut.

Huh? Before DEI there was equal opportunity. I grew up with that. What was wrong with it? Why did equal opporunity need to be replaced with race-based hierarchies?

 

[arthwollipot]

Before DEI there was equal opportunity.

I cannot believe that someone of your apparent intelligence can possibly believe that. Do Segregation, Jim Crow, ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ slavery mean anything to you?

 

[theprestige]

What about in the NHL? Should we sanction the NHL until they start being as colorful as America?

Sports teams are the product. Look at the team mangement demographics. Not the demos of the teams themselves.

 

[Hercules56]

Huh? Before DEI there was equal opportunity. I grew up with that. What was wrong with it? Why did equal opporunity need to be replaced with race-based hierarchies?

Before DEI there was Segregation.

The USA has never had a period of time where people were simply judged based on their skills and merits.

 

[arthwollipot]

Before DEI there was Segregation.

The USA has never had a period of time where people were simply judged based on their skills and merits.

The USA has never had a period of time where the colour of someone's skin didn't matter.

 

[jt512]

I love how providing opportunities for kids who never had those opportunities before is framed as discrimination and exclusion.

No one is doing that. Stop lying. No one is opposed to providing opportunities to anyone. As I have clearly and repeatedly stated, the opposition is to providing that opportunity exclusively to kids of certain races. That is literally discrimination and exclusion.

Totally flipping the narrative. But we can see through the rhetorical tactic, which is all it is.

No. You are "flipping the narrative," pretending that the words "inclusion," "exclusion," and "discrimination" have exactly their opposite meanings, as if you're George Orwell.