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Is Jesus's "this generation will certainly not pass" valid grounds for scepticism?

steenkh said:
No, I regard each of these persons as individuals. Jesus did whatever he did (if he ever existed ;)) for reasons that could have involved the motives that I mentioned, or could have been a lunatic, or he could be God incarnate (very unlikely, in my opinion).
The evangelists have their own reasons to write what they did, and they could also have used pious embellishments, and in the case of Matthew 24:34 perhaps also out of piety have neglected to remove something that should have been removed.
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Before I respond, may I ask what you liked about post #1,187? Are you implying that I am not telling the truth?
 
Poem said:
Before I respond, may I ask what you liked about post #1,187? Are you implying that I am not telling the truth?
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No, I am not implying that you are lying, but I agree with Cosmic Yak that it is difficult to understand why all of this interests you in such a personal matter when you are in fact not a Christian. As Cosmic Yak says, why don’t the contradictions in other religions interest you as much? I guess that your emotional attachment comes from living close together with Christian believers, or that you are yourself a former believer.

I was once a part of an atheist forum that attracted a lot of believers, and fortunately, we had atheists who were extremely knowledgeable about every aspect of the Bible, and who could cross swords with anybody who wanted to test their skills. We had a number of theological students who were shocked that the arguments they had been taught were so easily brushed away, and Jehovah’s Witnesses who thought that nobody knew the Bible as well as they did.

But the most interesting encounters were Buddhists, and Muslims who had their own way of thinking, and a rather different mindset than Christians.

I do not feel any particular attachment to Christianity apart from the fact that as a child I was a devout believer, and the Bible (and the Book of Mormon) are the only holy books I have read more than a couple of lines in.
 
steenkh said:
No, I am not implying that you are lying, but I agree with Cosmic Yak that it is difficult to understand why all of this interests you in such a personal matter when you are in fact not a Christian.
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It interests me because, as previously stated, Jesus's prophecy is stark and testable...and yet millions go on believing him.
steenkh said:
As Cosmic Yak says, why don’t the contradictions in other religions interest you as much? I guess that your emotional attachment comes from living close together with Christian believers, or that you are yourself a former believer.
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Other religions do interest me; I have never said otherwise. This thread is about Christianity. Maybe I'll do similar in the future on other religions.

Yes, I used to be a believer and have previously said so. (Actually very debatable that I had genuine faith.)
steenkh said:
I was once a part of an atheist forum that attracted a lot of believers, and fortunately, we had atheists who were extremely knowledgeable about every aspect of the Bible, and who could cross swords with anybody who wanted to test their skills. We had a number of theological students who were shocked that the arguments they had been taught were so easily brushed away, and Jehovah’s Witnesses who thought that nobody knew the Bible as well as they did.
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Okay - and similar knowledge displayed here from atheists and former believers perhaps.
steenkh said:
But the most interesting encounters were Buddhists, and Muslims who had their own way of thinking, and a rather different mindset than Christians.

I do not feel any particular attachment to Christianity apart from the fact that as a child I was a devout believer, and the Bible (and the Book of Mormon) are the only holy books I have read more than a couple of lines in.
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Ok.
 
steenkh said:
I do not feel any particular attachment to Christianity apart from the fact that as a child I was a devout believer, and the Bible (and the Book of Mormon) are the only holy books I have read more than a couple of lines in.
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If you don't mind me asking, what was the main reason that you stopped believing?
 
Poem said:
It interests me because, as previously stated, Jesus's prophecy is stark and testable...and yet millions go on believing him.
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Belief is not rational. The Bible is full of stuff that is easily shown to be contradicted by reality, or even contradictions within the Bible itself, but that alone has never swayed any believers. Belief is emotional, and pointing out contradictions only works when the emotional attachment has been weakened.
In my case, my belief slowly trickled out as I grew older. Other de-converts lose their faith at once when something happens in their life, like a death, or injustice that breaks the emotional attachment.
 
Poem said:
If you don't mind me asking, what was the main reason that you stopped believing?
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I just grew up. I have always been interested in science, and learning about nature, in particular astronomy, somehow showed me that a god was not necessary to make things work. The “problem of evil” also had a big part.

I was still going to church regularly (I assisted the priest as a ministrant), and I had no enmity against the church, but my belief just trickled away without me noticing it. Well, I had no love for the catholic church as an institution (quite the contrary), and even though the people were all very nice, the maltreatment of some people I knew perhaps also contributed a little to my gradual de-conversion.

It proceeded in stages. At first, I thought that God was perhaps not looking everywhere where a catastrophe, or injustice was taking place, and later I definitely thought that having created the world, God had fallen asleep in his armchair and was not involved in anything that happened, and finally, the armchair was empty – there had never been a god in it.
 
Poem said:
It interests me because, as previously stated, Jesus's prophecy is stark and testable...and yet millions go on believing him.
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I guess for me it's such an obvious and total dead end. Where do you go, from "Jesus's prophecy is stark and testable...and yet millions go on believing him"? Once you've observed that both halves of that are true, what else is there to do except move on?

At this point, that fact that you seem to think there's something more to unpack there - when there clearly isn't - is more interesting than the banality of irrational belief.
 
steenkh said:
Belief is not rational. The Bible is full of stuff that is easily shown to be contradicted by reality, or even contradictions within the Bible itself, but that alone has never swayed any believers. Belief is emotional, and pointing out contradictions only works when the emotional attachment has been weakened.
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Can't disagree.

If it were the case God did indeed exist, then it would seem that his 'message' to us has been filtered through humanity...and is flawed....which does not facilitate faith.
steenkh said:
In my case, my belief slowly trickled out as I grew older. Other de-converts lose their faith at once when something happens in their life, like a death, or injustice that breaks the emotional attachment.
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Ta.
 
theprestige said:
I guess for me it's such an obvious and total dead end. Where do you go, from "Jesus's prophecy is stark and testable...and yet millions go on believing him"? Once you've observed that both halves of that are true, what else is there to do except move on?

At this point, that fact that you seem to think there's something more to unpack there - when there clearly isn't - is more interesting than the banality of irrational belief.
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Yes, you have a point.

I'm still interested enough to continue examining this (clearly) - and maybe I'm concerned that humanity is heading for catastrophe...and that a human 'saviour' just isn't going to happen.

As previously stated - the thread is suffering from a total lack of Christian input.
 
steenkh said:
I just grew up. I have always been interested in science, and learning about nature, in particular astronomy, somehow showed me that a god was not necessary to make things work. The “
problem of evil” also had a big part.

I was still going to church regularly (I assisted the priest as a ministrant), and I had no enmity against the church, but my belief just trickled away without me noticing it. Well, I had no love for the catholic church as an institution (quite the contrary), and even though the people were all very nice, the maltreatment of some people I knew perhaps also contributed a little to my gradual de-conversion.

It proceeded in stages. At first, I thought that God was perhaps not looking everywhere where a catastrophe, or injustice was taking place, and later I definitely thought that having created the world, God had fallen asleep in his armchair and was not involved in anything that happened, and finally, the armchair was empty – there had never been a god in it.
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As in theodicy?
 
Poem said:
As in theodicy?
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Yes. I was always aware of this problem, and the usual explanations of “God works in mysterious ways”, or “the child that died under horrible circumstances is now with God, so all was for the better” always struck me as unsatisfactory, if not cruel, especially for a triple-omni god.
 
steenkh said:
No, I regard each of these persons as individuals. Jesus did whatever he did (if he ever existed ;)) for reasons that could have involved the motives that I mentioned, or could have been a lunatic, or he could be God incarnate (very unlikely, in my opinion).
The evangelists have their own reasons to write what they did, and they could also have used pious embellishments, and in the case of Matthew 24:34 perhaps also out of piety have neglected to remove something that should have been removed.
Click to expand...
The awkward 'this generation' phrase is in three of the four gospels (ie in the synoptics) - surely that's not an editorial oversight?

C'S' Lewis said that Jesus was either a lunatic, liar or Lord. If we dismiss the third option, I'm still not clear how Jesus could get away with the first two. In making his argument, Lewis was dispelling the notion that Jesus could be considered a great human moral teacher.

It's notable that Lewis was an atheist before converting.
 
The gospels of Matthew and Luke are largely believed to have derived much of their content from the earlier Mark, but there is also a lost source document known as Q, which appears to have consisted mainly of specific sayings and quotations. This may be why the language of the three gospels is so similar.
 
Werner Heisenberg (1901-1976), the famous theoretical physicist and pioneer of quantum mechanics, was a devout Christian.

"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you".
 
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Poem said:
Werner Heisenberg (1901-1976), the famous theoretical physicist and pioneer of quantum mechanics, was a devout Christian.

"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you".
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My glass is still almost full, though I have been drinking from it all my life. But you are perhaps on your way to meet God at the bottom?
 
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