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Merged Due process in the US

Hercules56 said:
Yes, its horrible and the State Department should do their best to help him.

Unfortunately he is not a citizen or even a visa holder, so there is less impetus for the State Dept to help him out. Why cant the govt of his own country, El Salvador, help him out?
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Why would El Salvador help out Venezuelans? Also, does it matter? Would you have the same attitude for Jews that migrated to the USA, "illegally"?
 
thaiboxerken said:
You're right, the difference is huge. The Nazis killed people in massive droves at Auschwitz. The El Salvadoran prisons aren't killing people at that rate, yet. They are, however, treating people inhumanely, including beatings so bad that people die.
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Glad we agree that the comparison is atrocious and dishonest.
 
I usually don't reply to people who aren't arguing in good faith, but I'll bite --what about the Jews who fled Germany during Hitler's early years, where Germany was where the US is right now on the path to fascist autocracy? Should the US have shipped them off to black sites and prisons in El Salvador?
 
Safe-Keeper said:
I usually don't reply to people who aren't arguing in good faith, but I'll bite --what about the Jews who fled Germany during Hitler's early years, where Germany was where the US is right now on the path to fascist autocracy? Should the US have shipped them off to black sites and prisons in El Salvador?
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No, considering Hitler's genocidal rantings and the Nuremberg Laws, the USA should have created a special unlimited asylum policy for Jews and other targets of the Nazis.
 
Hercules56 said:
He's from El Salvador.

www.theatlantic.com

An ‘Administrative Error’ Sends a Maryland Father to a Salvadoran Prison

The Trump administration says that it mistakenly deported an immigrant with protected status but that courts are powerless to order his return.
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com
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So what?
The Trump administration inadvertently revealed on Monday that it is attempting to trap Venezuelan migrants in a catch-22 that would effectively block them from challenging their deportation and detention in an El Salvador prison. In a court filing, the government acknowledged that it had deported at least one migrant to El Salvador due to an “administrative error”—
but argued that the individual had no right to contest his imprisonment because he is in the custody of a “foreign sovereign.”This argument confirms what’s been clear for weeks: The government intends to treat the prison as a black site where migrants have no constitutional rights whatsoever and may be subject to any treatment whatsoever—including indefinite detention, forced labor, torture, or death.
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Sounds to me like he's ◊◊◊◊◊◊.

From your link:
The Trump administration says that it mistakenly deported an immigrant with protected status but that courts are powerless to order his return.
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Ooops, we made a mistake and sent a protected migrant to a Salvadoran slave prison.
 
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Hercules56 said:
You clearly have me confused with someone else.
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The part that makes this confusing is that you swear up and down that you want due process, yet routinely you have distanced yourself from correcting the circumstances that have led to due process being denied. It's like you're disabling sprinkler systems and locking fire escapes, "But trust me, I do not want anyone to die in a fire."
 
Hercules56 said:
No, considering Hitler's genocidal rantings and the Nuremberg Laws, the USA should have created a special unlimited asylum policy for Jews and other targets of the Nazis.
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Why? Why do you want Jews to have protection but not other people seeking asylum? Something to do with religion? Skin colour?
 
I Am The Scum said:
The part that makes this confusing is that you swear up and down that you want due process, yet routinely you have distanced yourself from correcting the circumstances that have led to due process being denied. It's like you're disabling sprinkler systems and locking fire escapes, "But trust me, I do not want anyone to die in a fire."
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Yes, people who are mistakenly detained for being undocumented should have the ability to contest this. If they are deported to their home country, its a bit more difficult. A President who actually cared about people would still try to help that person.
 
Safe-Keeper said:
Why? Why do you want Jews to have protection but not other people seeking asylum? Something to do with religion? Skin colour?
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Knowing what we now know about the Holocaust and the 6 million murdered Jews, I think people facing mass genocide should get extra consideration for asylum. Don't you?
 
I believe that the entire edifice of political rights, be it regarding in-group members (citizens) or out-group members (visitors, foreigners at home and abroad), critically rests upon the core principle expressed in the DoI regarding all humans being equal and endowed with rights (the DoI's deficiencies in phrasing and argument aside). That is to say, equality is the sole and key foundation upon which recognition of any individual as a rights holder is granted. Without such recognition, we inevitably face a system of differential privileges which may be arbitrarily recognized or violated at whim.

To reach such a radical position, i.e., that extremely differently gifted individuals should be considered equals, requires a foundation of its own. If we eschew religious argument (thankfully):
  • First, that "sameness" is not the criterion, but that the condition of "possessing a full inner self" is. Call it what you wish, an inner spark, consciousness coupled to a human identity. That "soul" or inner self is considered equally capable of suffering, love, hope and passion, of fully being in an experiential manner we can all identify with. Without this aspect of an equal "fullness of being", a full self, as a core understanding, equality can be both:
    • (a) overextended semantically beyond political rights to "sameness" and thereby easily ridiculed as delusional, given obvious human physical and behavioural differences, and
    • (b) eternally subject to being questioned and attacked, as recognizing equality comes with the price of preventing predation, creating boundary conditions to do so.
  • For a majority to share a perception of the inner self of others, in order to experience and agree that "there be souls/selves in us", we must agree it is indeed not only possible, but part of who we are as social animals to deeply interconnect in suffering and joy, hopes and dreams, fear and relief.
    • Proof? Hollywood movies and video games rely on this deeply. Emotional appeals in advertising. Budweiser SB commercials. I rest my case.
    • This perception is also key to learning, and involves the firing of motor neurons. Ever sway with the moves of an actor or athlete on screen, lean during an auto race video game? That.
    • NOTA BENE: Thus, we see why empathy is the publicly named enemy of Thiel, Musk and radical Randians. Empathy is the means by which we see into others, both to understand, and to protect ourselves by predicting behavior. Not a bug, a feature. (Cue Theory of Mind discussion.)
  • Third, that such equality refers to political equality and political rights alone, not guaranteed life outcomes, an absurdity (caveats apply).
Woof, sorry. Now, with the above, it remains to identify the role of an acting authority that is protecting and extending those rights, or they are mere good intentions. Because a government is the vehicle, different governments each have their roles. BUT! That is a purely practical and pragmatic matter, not a question of differential self, of scalar humanity, of a fundamental invalidity in the core assumption underlying all.

Therefore, yup, due process, habeus corpus, full recognition of common humanity. (Which then extends to other threads about current wars.)

ETA: And so the onslaught on freedom began with a ferocious attack on DEI. They aren't going for "the Blacks", LGBTQ+, etc. They are coming for you.

From the first page:
johnny karate said:
Anyone who advocates for the degradation of any right is advocating for the degradation of all of them.
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On a global, humanity-wide basis, indeed.
 
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There's just no way to reasonably compromise on who gets due process. If the state erroneously accuses me of being an illegal immigrant subject to deportation, how am I supposed to prove that isn't the case without due process?

We either have due process--all of us--or we don't.
 
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mumblethrax said:
There's just no way to reasonably compromise on who gets due process. If the state erroneously accuses me of being an illegal immigrant subject to deportation, how am I supposed to prove that isn't the case without due process?

We either have due process--all of us--or we don't.
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This, due process isn't for the guilty, its for the not guilty because how else can you be reasonable sure you've got the right person. Like so much else, the administration is not concerned about breaking things so long as they are doing something. Even when directionally I agree with them, they are wrong in every detail, mostly because they don't care about the details.
 
Hercules56 said:
Yes, people who are mistakenly detained for being undocumented should have the ability to contest this. If they are deported to their home country, its a bit more difficult. A President who actually cared about people would still try to help that person.
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So here's my crazy idea to guaran-damn-tee that none of these accidents happen: Let's reduce the number of people being detained for Constitutionally-protected speech to zero. Then, the number of people having due process denied for Constitutionally-protected speech will be zero. I know these types of radical leftist ideas seem nutty at first! But it just might work!
 
ahhell said:
This, due process isn't for the guilty, its for the not guilty because how else can you be reasonable sure you've got the right person. Like so much else, the administration is not concerned about breaking things so long as they are doing something. Even when directionally I agree with them, they are wrong in every detail, mostly because they don't care about the details.
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FOr anybody who thinks due process of law is not important, read a novel called 'The Ox Bow Incident".
 
ahhell said:
This, due process isn't for the guilty, its for the not guilty because how else can you be reasonable sure you've got the right person. Like so much else, the administration is not concerned about breaking things so long as they are doing something. Even when directionally I agree with them, they are wrong in every detail, mostly because they don't care about the details.
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When Trump assembles a clown car cabinet, no one should be surprised when it runs into things.
 
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