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Is Jesus's "this generation will certainly not pass" valid grounds for scepticism?

Cosmic Yak said:
Scientists in America. Not only that, but a sub-set of US scientists, namely members of the AAAS.
The percentage for America drops to 30% if all scientists are sampled, and the percentage worldwide (and note that these figures are for identifying as any religious belief, from slightly up to very religious) varies from India (59%) down to just 16% in France.
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Actually, I think it only fair that you deal with this first: #519.
 
steenkh said:
Telling porkies to the other members of your religious group could be one way of establishing your supremacy: if you know something “on good authority” that the others don’t know, they’ll think that you are a very important person.
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I was hoping for a details.

Are we talking of some kind of conspiracy? Or was it just Jesus - a crazy who managed to fool a lot of Jews?
 
Poem said:
I was hoping for a details.

Are we talking of some kind of conspiracy? Or was it just Jesus - a crazy who managed to fool a lot of Jews?
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No details. I don’t think it qualifies as a conspiracy, when there is just a single person lying to get power. All religions are made this way - if not from decidedly psychotic people whose ravings others think are deep truths.

The best documented is how Joseph Smith created Mormonism: he did it for the sex and the money.
 
Cosmic Yak said:
Deal with what?
You have just effectively admitted that you are a Christian, and now you want me to apologise for believing that you are a Christian?
Not going to happen, mate.
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You keep doing this and I clearly have not done so.

Apologise and retract.
 
Poem said:
You keep doing this and I clearly have not done so.

Apologise and retract.
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I have posted a detailed rationale for my conviction, to which you have not responded, so it is by no means clear that you have not done so.
If you are not a Christian, why are you spending so much time worrying over specific verses in the Bible, and asking whether they should cause a Christian do have doubts about their faith? Have you spent an equivalent amount of time going over the Greek myths, and wondering whether or not to believe in Zeus? If not, why not?
 
Cosmic Yak said:
I have posted a detailed rationale for my conviction, to which you have not responded, so it is by no means clear that you have not done so.
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It's not up for debate.
Cosmic Yak said:
If you are not a Christian, why are you spending so much time worrying over specific verses in the Bible, and asking whether they should cause a Christian do have doubts about their faith?
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I affirm the OP is a formidable challenge to Christians and Christianity.
Cosmic Yak said:
Have you spent an equivalent amount of time going over the Greek myths, and wondering whether or not to believe in Zeus? If not, why not?
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That is another subject.

Apologise and retract.
 
Poem said:
It's not up for debate.
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No, because this is my opinion, to which I am entitled, and for which I have given my reasoning.
Poem said:
I affirm the OP is a formidable challenge to Christians and Christianity.
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So why do you care?
Poem said:
That is another subject.
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No, it's not. Why is it so important for a (supposedly) non-Christian to fret about which Biblical passages are the most troublesome for faith in Jesus, but not important for a non-pagan to fret about which parts of Greek mythology are most troublesome for faith in Zeus?
Poem said:
Apologise and retract.
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No.
 
Cosmic Yak said:
No, because this is my opinion, to which I am entitled, and for which I have given my reasoning.
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You are disrespectful.
Cosmic Yak said:
So why do you care?
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I care. You shouldn't have a problem with that.
Cosmic Yak said:
No, it's not. Why is it so important for a (supposedly) non-Christian to fret about which Biblical passages are the most troublesome for faith in Jesus, but not important for a non-pagan to fret about which parts of Greek mythology are most troublesome for faith in Zeus?
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I never said anything about Zeus not being important.
Cosmic Yak said:
No.
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Cosmic Yak said:
Nope. I just have an opinion you don't like, is all.
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No, you have an opinion that is 100% wrong but you have decided to keep expressing it. The thread's subject matter is clearly stated and your opinion on anyone's faith or otherwise is irrelevant.
Cosmic Yak said:
Why do you think I have a problem with that?
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Okay, maybe you don't.
Cosmic Yak said:
No, because you never said anything about Zeus at all. Which is my point.
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Seriously? You want me to spell this out?
 
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steenkh said:
No details. I don’t think it qualifies as a conspiracy, when there is just a single person lying to get power. All religions are made this way - if not from decidedly psychotic people whose ravings others think are deep truths.

The best documented is how Joseph Smith created Mormonism: he did it for the sex and the money.
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What did Jesus do it for? AFAIK, no sex and no money.
 
Poem said:
What did Jesus do it for? AFAIK, no sex and no money.
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I don’t know about sex, because the gospels are relatively silent about it. Although there is a story about in Luke 10:38-42 about how Jesus lived with two sisters and one was angry that the other one was together with Jesus all the time. I think it is safe to assume that sex was involved here, but written out of the story.

And about the money, well, other people need to earn the money, but Jesus didn’t need to work, but could live OK of what his disciples brought to him, even make them steal a donkey for him to ride on. He certainly has power, and authority, and that in itself is powerful motivation.
 
steenkh said:
I don’t know about sex, because the gospels are relatively silent about it. Although there is a story about in Luke 10:38-42 about how Jesus lived with two sisters and one was angry that the other one was together with Jesus all the time. I think it is safe to assume that sex was involved here, but written out of the story.
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If awkward facts were written out of the story, why was Matthew 24:34 left in?

Why single out Mary and Martha - why not go with sex with all the apostles...he spent time with them too. Quite a lot of time.

You are just speculating aren't you?
steenkh said:
And about the money, well, other people need to earn the money, but Jesus didn’t need to work, but could live OK of what his disciples brought to him, even make them steal a donkey for him to ride on. He certainly has power, and authority, and that in itself is powerful motivation.
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But ended up crucified as confirmed by Tacitus. Jesus had no power over the Scribes and Pharisees who clearly loathed him.

Did any of the naysaying Jews accuse him of enriching himself?
 
Poem said:
If awkward facts were written out of the story, why was Matthew 24:34 left in?
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Editorial error?
Poem said:
Why single out Mary and Martha - why not go with sex with all the apostles...he spent time with them too. Quite a lot of time.
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Sure, why not?
Poem said:
You are just speculating aren't you?
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You thought that Jesus could not possibly be involved because of sex and money. I pointed out that you can’t rule it out. And I added power as another motivation.
Poem said:
But ended up crucified as confirmed by Tacitus. Jesus had no power over the Scribes and Pharisees who clearly loathed him.
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Joseph Smith also ended up being killed. Why should Jesus have power over the people who were not his followers?
Poem said:
Did any of the naysaying Jews accuse him of enriching himself?
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Would the gospels have told us if they did?
 
steenkh said:
Editorial error?

Sure, why not?

You thought that Jesus could not possibly be involved because of sex and money. I pointed out that you can’t rule it out. And I added power as another motivation.

Joseph Smith also ended up being killed. Why should Jesus have power over the people who were not his followers?

Would the gospels have told us if they did?
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Just to be clear - you said:
I don’t think it qualifies as a conspiracy, when there is just a single person lying to get power.

but you are talking about more than just Jesus - you have implied that Mat. 24:34 shouldn't have been left in.
 
Poem said:
Just to be clear - you said:
I don’t think it qualifies as a conspiracy, when there is just a single person lying to get power.

but you are talking about more than just Jesus - you have implied that Mat. 24:34 shouldn't have been left in.
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No, I regard each of these persons as individuals. Jesus did whatever he did (if he ever existed ;)) for reasons that could have involved the motives that I mentioned, or could have been a lunatic, or he could be God incarnate (very unlikely, in my opinion).
The evangelists have their own reasons to write what they did, and they could also have used pious embellishments, and in the case of Matthew 24:34 perhaps also out of piety have neglected to remove something that should have been removed.
 
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