Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Emily's Cat]

Kinda have, dramatic periods ommited.

Eta: your edit question: the entirety of scientific subject matter in the English language has acknowledged the difference between sex and gender, considering it important to varying degrees, of course.

While discussing this on this and many other threads, definitions are presented by a myriad of scientific bodies. I have yet to see a single one that claims sex is literally synonymous with gender. If you know of one, I'm all ears, seriously. Otherwise we both know I can easily present definitions from medical texts, psychological ones, etc, but it's not your usual style to demand gratuitous busy work from other posters, as some of our lower watt bulbs demand.

That definition is presented by sociologists and gender studies clinicians, maybe some psychologists with a particular interest in gender identity. Then they get referenced by each other until the end of time. It's turtles all the way down.

On the other hand, up until about a decade ago, the entire field of medicine used the terms interchangeably. As did anthropology and forensics. And I guarantee that math, physics, chemistry and the other hard sciences don't give a crap about the terms, and when they get used they're used colloquially.

I'm certain you can present definitions from medical texts etc. Can you present some from 1990 that support your assertion? Can you find firmly defined terms that draw a meaningful distinction from prior to 2000?

 

[Rolfe]

I don't know how you do it. I kind of lost the will to live about six pages back. It's the fringe reset that swallowed Saturn.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't know how you do it. I kind of lost the will to live about six pages back. It's the fringe reset that swallowed Saturn.

I generally like Thermal, so I'm more inclined to be patient. I also skimmed and ignored a bunch of stuff.

There's also a trade-off here. I get frustrated at the people on ISF that clearly have strong opinions on the topic, and who frequently introduce TRA talking points into other threads... but who absolutely refuse to actually discuss the topic. Those (and you know who I'm talking about) get very hostile toward me and you and many of the other posters who have been through this. They get downright rude and mean especially to those of us who are female and who are directly impacted by this entire gender identity crapfest. But they feel empowered to call us names, do denigrate and insult us, and then they hide behind "Oh I'm not going into that thread, it's a cesspool of evil bigotry and hate".

The reality is that none of us are particularly hateful. None of us are bigoted. Mostly we're just fed the ◊◊◊◊ up.

So when someone who has avoided this thread actually *does* wade on in and they're not being obnoxious about it but seem to be actually considering it in good faith, I think it's worth some patience if there's an opportunity to win support.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Also, my alien overlords didn't program all of my emotions properly, so there's that.

 

[Thermal]

Okay, I hear what you're saying. I want to challenge this.

Let's say you go to a dinner party at your neighbor's house. They happen to be devout catholic, but still a pretty nice person. They've also invited their church's priest and one of the nuns.

The polite term of address for those two is "Father Roger O'Brien" and "Sister Agatha".

Do you think it is reasonable for your friend to require you to refer to the priest as "Father O'brien", or do you think it should be reasonable for you to refer to them as "Mr. O'Brien" or perhaps even "Roger"? Do you think you it reasonable that you be chastised and socially censured for saying "Hi Agatha, nice to meet you"?

Is there a reasonable point at which it's reasonable to NOT conform to someone else's beliefs?

No need for me to speculate. Time for Thermal's Story Time!

I was raised in the protestant tradition. My grandfather was a popular pastor and everything. When I went to high school, my whole town went to a Catholic High School, because our public sending district was.. well, gang controlled, and all my friends were there I was given clear instructions not to call any of the priests "father", but to call them "reverend" or simply "sir". I was told this because it was important to make the statement that he was not my father, complete with biblical verses in support (thou shalt call no man thy father, etc).

All well and good till I was out of that high school (at their rather abrupt insistence). I later o casionalky attended the church of this smoking hot brunette, and I realized that no one thought of the priest as a father, even though he was a down to earth guy who really listened and talked with you, not at you like so many from my upbringing. It wasn't compromising me in any way to call him "father". Not one person anywhere thought I was acknowledging anything about him, except for the douchebags who admonished me not to call them "father". It was just a form.of address, nothing more. And to this day, I'll call nuns "sister" and priests "father", and my "intellectual honesty" is uncompromised.

You'll see posters here arguing that they are merely stating "biological fact" when calling a transwoman "he". They are liars, trying to hide behind the teeniest tiniest fig leaves. That's because "s/he" is not a physiological assessment. It's word, a form of address, that carries none of these imaginary extra meanings. No one thought I was acknowledging a priest as my father in any way, and no one is performing chromosomal certification by using "s/he".

 

[Thermal]

So what's the word we should use when we want to refer to exclusively biological females?

Fill in the blank quiz:

An adult female horse is called a _______________
An adult female fox is called a _______________
An adult female chicken is called a __________________
And adult female human is called a __________________

Skipping to last, if it's important to make a distinction, call her an adult human female. Otherwise, "woman" works fine in 99.5% of cases. There is a half percent where it doesn't. Language can be imprecise like that sometimes. I hear young girls call each other "dude" all the time. Shall we lecture them on physiologically accurate forms of address, or acknowledge it really doesn't matter?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Skipping to last, if it's important to make a distinction, call her an adult human female. Otherwise, "woman" works fine in 99.5% of cases. There is a half percent where it doesn't. Language can be imprecise like that sometimes. I hear young girls call each other "dude" all the time. Shall we lecture them on physiologically accurate forms of address, or acknowledge it really doesn't matter?

What are the 0.5% of cases where it doesn't work to call an adult female horse a mare?

Honestly, why is it so inconceivable that we female humans would like to have a word that refers to us as a collective sex within our species, and doesn't have to include some special males?

That's actually one of the running complaints here - females are facing a reality where our ability to talk about ourselves and our common experiences is being actively and intentionally eroded. And the focus is disproportionately on females, not on males. We see the makers of pads and tampons advertise to "people who bleed" and "menstruators". We see doctors and nurses told to refer to us as "gestational parents" and "chestfeeders". We're being systematically broken down to a collection of dehumanized body parts and functions... and the very word that represents us has been stolen from us. We can't even refer to ourselves as women, because that term now perforce includes some males.

 

[Thermal]

What are the 0.5% of cases where it doesn't work to call an adult female horse a mare?

Doesn't matter, like the other animals on your list, because they have no meaningful concept of gender that we are aware of. And EC, I do believe you know that.

Honestly, why is it so inconceivable that we female humans would like to have a word that refers to us as a collective sex within our species, and doesn't have to include some special males?

Hard to relate. Man can mean human, male humans, a casual form.of address... as far as I know, having a special proprietary term is kind of... meaningless? What are we, the Bloods and the Crips?

That's actually one of the running complaints here - females are facing a reality where our ability to talk about ourselves and our common experiences is being actively and intentionally eroded. And the focus is disproportionately on females, not on males. We see the makers of pads and tampons advertise to "people who bleed" and "menstruators". We see doctors and nurses told to refer to us as "gestational parents" and "chestfeeders". We're being systematically broken down to a collection of dehumanized body parts and functions... and the very word that represents us has been stolen from us. We can't even refer to ourselves as women, because that term now perforce includes some males.

Again, maybe I'm just not getting something, but a word is a sound in the air. I just don't get why it's somehow derogatory to share a form.of address. I have no objection to calling those rare trans men "dude". There are a lot of hills to die on that really show what you are made of. This doesn't seem like a great hill.

 

[Thermal]

That definition is presented by sociologists and gender studies clinicians, maybe some psychologists with a particular interest in gender identity. Then they get referenced by each other until the end of time. It's turtles all the way down.

One of my kids started her first semester in the doctoral program for neuroscience. Thats-a hard scientific discipline. Wanna take a guess how every text she has worked with since high school defines them, with no ambiguity whatsoever??

On the other hand, up until about a decade ago, the entire field of medicine used the terms interchangeably. As did anthropology and forensics. And I guarantee that math, physics, chemistry and the other hard sciences don't give a crap about the terms, and when they get used they're used colloquially.

I'm certain you can present definitions from medical texts etc. Can you present some from 1990 that support your assertion? Can you find firmly defined terms that draw a meaningful distinction from prior to 2000?

I probably could. I'm confident, in fact. What's your bet? Giving me busy work that will be summarily ignored when it's late and I'm tired needs to have a payout.

 

[Thermal]

@Emily's Cat : my meta argument here is to be accommodating to a very small minority group. One out of 200 people, at most. I really don't mind using the "wrong" term to make someone feel included, and... just normal. I consider it an obligation of sorts.

 

[Rolfe]

No. I'm not being accommodating to demanding, bullying, overbearing, autogynaephilic men who get off on LARPing womanhood and making women uncomfortable. Not even when Thermal tells me to.

 

[Rolfe]

And I'm definitely not intending to make these perverted men feel "included". It would be nice if some men felt an obligation of sorts to stand up for women, but I'm not holding my breath.

Male to female transsexualism is almost always the expression of a sexual fetish, and male sexual fetishises have no place in women's single sex spaces.

 

[Hercules56]

Why is it considered "bigotry" to suggest that someone who thinks they are a woman born in a man's body, might be a bit delusional and suffer from mental illness?

If I as a 48 year old decided that I am really 5 years old living in an adult body, would it be unreasonable to suggest I might need some help?

 

[Thermal]

Why is it considered "bigotry" to suggest that someone who thinks they are a woman born in a man's body, might be a bit delusional and suffer from mental illness?

It's not, necessarily.

If I as a 48 year old decided that I am really 5 years old living in an adult body, would it be unreasonable to suggest I might need some help?

Nope.

Nothing really to do with the thread, though.

 

[Thermal]

No. I'm not being accommodating to demanding, bullying, overbearing, autogynaephilic men who get off on LARPing womanhood and making women uncomfortable. Not even when Thermal tells me to.

Not only did Thermal not tell you to do anything, but Thermal said nothing of the sort about himself or anyone else.

And I'm definitely not intending to make these perverted men feel "included". It would be nice if some men felt an obligation of sorts to stand up for women, but I'm not holding my breath.

Male to female transsexualism is almost always the expression of a sexual fetish, and male sexual fetishises have no place in women's single sex spaces.

Can this be substantiated to a skeptic's standard, or is it one of those "my arguments only make sense if we assume this" things?

 

[Rolfe]

I've discovered far more than I ever wanted to know about this, and people who haven't gone into it in any detail and who nevertheless scold others to "be kind" and give these perverted men everything they demand are really getting on my tits.

 

[Thermal]

Guess that's a "no, I got nothing."

 

[Clutch Cargo]

Transwomen are not Women​

If they were women they wouldn't be called transwomen.

 

[Thermal]

Just like bathrooms aren't rooms, I suppose.

 

[Rolfe]

Guess that's a "no, I got nothing."

No, It's "I'm fed up providing the statistics for trans-identifying male sexual offending, the thousand or so examples of these cases, and the psychology/psychiatry references that explain autogynaephilia," only to have everything dismissed as "you can't keep trans-identifying men from having everything they want just because of a few bad apples." As I remarked before, no matter how high the proportion of bad apples in the barrel, you'll insist that all of them must be treated with deference and grovelling, all of them must have free right of access to women's spaces, just because there might be one in a small village in Wales somewhere who isn't a pervert who gets off on listening to women pee.

You have no idea what these men are really like. You have completely swallowed the propaganda about the poor harmless troubled soul who only wants to have everything women have and not be bothered by anyone about it. The most oppressed and marginalised group on the planet, that has governments and organisations and corporations dancing attendance on it by draping everything in the Progress Pride flag (forced teaming is working well there), abolishing all female single-sex spaces and getting women who speak out of line cancelled and sacked. You have no interest in looking any deeper into this issue in case it shakes your male-centred prejudice, and you'll dismiss any evidence handed to you as flawed in some way or another. Sick of this.

ETA: Here's an article, though I don't imagine you'll read it.

The White Lotus exposes a dark truth about trans

Some men have a sexual fetish for pretending to be women.

www.spiked-online.com