Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

theprestige said:
Damion is usually a lot better about accurately describing the state of play.

1 and 2 actually don't come up much in debate. What actually gets debated is whether:
  1. Lawfully segregated venues must by law treat males as females if that's what the males want; or
  2. Lawfully segregated venues may treat males as males regardless of what they want.
I.e., it's all about approach #3, and whether it should be a legal approach.

Also, if you're all for #3, then you've already settled on the exact approach that you're afraid of being bandwagoned into accepting: Nobody should be legally required to treat transwomen as females. All of your resistance to argumentation has been for naught. You already agree with the conclusion you've been trying to dodge.

Which raises the question, what exactly did you think we've been trying to tell you this whole time?
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There's an additional point raised by your "lawfully segregated" thing. Sal Grover wants to run a social media app for women only. Other people want to have lesbian-only social events. The question of lesbian dating sites is another. It is also being pushed heavily that these things are not, or should not be, lawfully segregated. That it is illegal to run a social media app, or a pub quiz night, or a reading group, or a dating site, that excludes men.
 
Matthew Best said:
Well, it's a queue - so by definition there were several other people there standing right next to him, as well as the person taking the photo. How many of them have come forward and said he was masturbating?
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It's not the sort of thing women do. Although the look on one woman's face is worth a thousand words. There were indeed several women standing right next to him. The emboldenment of the AGP fetish is yet another problem. If I see the picture, I'll post it. And then you can sit there and affect to believe he's not masturbating.
 
theprestige said:
Which raises the question, what exactly did you think we've been trying to tell you this whole time?
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Well, I don't think it should even require the hiring of lawyers, personally... or all this jumping about, waving our arms around in a panic. I haven't noticed that nonlitigious people are particularly inflexible in local circumstances. That's where I think it should be handled. Case by case.

Of course, I don't live in a place where a person can be very anonymous, either. But still... there's no reason for somebody not impacted by the situation to have an opinion. Our entire thought process is nothing but a fantasy when judging from afar... nothing real about it. It might bring in unexpected perspectives, but that's about it.

But at the same time, when people think they're being discriminated against, they do get litigious. It's best to avoid getting to that point if you don't want to rearrange things quite a bit more than you otherwise would.

And then there are jackasses. Those exist, too.

So yeah... there you go. My entire opinion with a little less window dressing. The rest was just to show that entirely different ways of thinking exist.
 
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theprestige said:
i.e., it's all about approach #3, and whether it should be a legal approach.
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I've seen Executive Orders that go pretty hard at approach #1, by requiring the use of sex rather than gender "when interpreting or applying [federal] statutes, regulations, or guidance." We'll see how it plays out in the courts when applied against a sympathetic plaintiff, but probably not in the NCAA.
 
Rolfe said:
It's not the sort of thing women do. Although the look on one woman's face is worth a thousand words. There were indeed several women standing right next to him. The emboldenment of the AGP fetish is yet another problem. If I see the picture, I'll post it. And then you can sit there and affect to believe he's not masturbating.
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Not the sort of thing women do? You're doing it right now! If your evidence that he was masturbating is the fact that no-one who saw him said he was doing it, it's pretty unfalsifiable, isn't it?

I've found the photo and seen it. If you still insist it's a photo of him masturbating I don't know what to say. I think I'd call it confirmation bias. Isn't it bad enough that he's queueing for the ladies' room, without implying something much worse that isn't in evidence?
 
Fine, have it your own way. Yes, it's pretty bad that he's queueing for the Ladies anyway. He just happened to feel the need to adjust his jock-strap while he was in the queue, I understand.
 
I misremembered the woman looking on. There are so many of these photos of men jerking off in the Ladies, one gets them mixed up. Just rearranging his bits in his jock-strap, right.
 
Rolfe said:
Fine, have it your own way. Yes, it's pretty bad that he's queueing for the Ladies anyway. He just happened to feel the need to adjust his jock-strap while he was in the queue, I understand.
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Speaking as a male and without video, from only that picture, that could easily be just adjusting his balls. Video might indicate more.

HOWEVER...

Adjusting your balls is not only very male behavior (obviously), it also calls attention to your male anatomy. Which, in the context of waiting in line for a women's restroom, seems really ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ rude. Not as rude as masturbating, but still a complete dick move. I mean seriously, if you want other people to pretend that you're female, you have to at least pretend yourself.
 
Ziggurat said:
Speaking as a male and without video, from only that picture, that could easily be just adjusting his balls. Video might indicate more.

HOWEVER...

Adjusting your balls is not only very male behavior (obviously), it also calls attention to your male anatomy. Which, in the context of waiting in line for a women's restroom, seems really ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ rude. Not as rude as masturbating, but still a complete dick move. I mean seriously, if you want other people to pretend that you're female, you have to at least pretend yourself.
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Or (and not just trying to be difficult here), his arm could be bent in a semi circle with a wrist bent towards his head, putting his palm on his abdomen below the belly button, like an instinctive touch when you have a sudden pain. The pic is just a confusing perspective.

If he was actually waxing the carrot or otherwise being inappropriate, pretty sure a more damning angle would have been effortlessly caught by the picture taker.
 
Thermal said:
Or (and not just trying to be difficult here), his arm could be bent in a semi circle with a wrist bent towards his head, putting his palm on his abdomen below the belly button, like an instinctive touch when you have a sudden pain. The pic is just a confusing perspective.
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He's definitely reaching under the fold of the dress/jacket/whatever that is.
Thermal said:
If he was actually waxing the carrot or otherwise being inappropriate, pretty sure a more damning angle would have been effortlessly caught by the picture taker.
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Doesn't take long to adjust your balls, so no, getting a better angle would not necessarily have been possible. Which I still consider inappropriate behavior in context, but much less so than masturbating.
 
theprestige said:
Any time there's a dispute about rights, it comes down to a question of law.
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I don't think the OP was about legal rights at all, but rather about policies created by national and international sporting bodies.

I know not everything has to be directly about the OP but there is an entire layer of policy here which isn't necessarily governed by law, but rather by private associations (and sometimes public accommodations) creating and enforcing their own policies in the relative absence of legal constraints.

Below that layer is one governed entirely by social norms (which is where most of us live most of the time) which dictates behavior in the event that no one has yet resorted to the powers that be for clarification.

That's a three layer cake, and we haven't even gotten into the nuances yet.
 
Thermal said:
Or (and not just trying to be difficult here), his arm could be bent in a semi circle with a wrist bent towards his head, putting his palm on his abdomen below the belly button, like an instinctive touch when you have a sudden pain. The pic is just a confusing perspective.

If he was actually waxing the carrot or otherwise being inappropriate, pretty sure a more damning angle would have been effortlessly caught by the picture taker.
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Not really wanting to continue this, but if you have a very sudden abdominal pain and your hand goes there instinctively, you do not (have time to) burrow under the folds of a fairly thick coat. It takes a few seconds to work your way round the opening of the coat and get your hand there. What was he doing and why? Well, my opinion remains unchanged. Just one more in the interminable series of "guy in bad drag wanking in the Ladies" pics, although unusually not a selfie.
 
Jesse Singal expresses (what I'd call) a moderate take on trans youth health research:

…cutting back on research about these treatments would be a tragic error. What this field needs — and what gender-questioning youth deserve — is reform, oversight and higher methodological standards. To cripple this field in its infancy would be to leave countless families in intolerable limbo.​

Gift link 🎁
 
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Rolfe said:
Not really wanting to continue this, but ...
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Me nether, but..
Rolfe said:
if you have a very sudden abdominal pain and your hand goes there instinctively, you do not (have time to) burrow under the folds of a fairly thick coat. It takes a few seconds to work your way round the opening of the coat and get your hand there.
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That is a thick lapeled coat, right over left, no obvious buttons securing it at that area. If you reached for your abdomen, your hand would almost inevitably slide right under such a lapel. There's no fumbling at all to get under it.
Rolfe said:
What was he doing and why? Well, my opinion remains unchanged. Just one more in the interminable series of "guy in bad drag wanking in the Ladies" pics, although unusually not a selfie.
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Well, I believe you said earlier he was masturbating? That is obviously not true, or the people around him are remarkably casual about it.

You're seeing what you want to see, facts be damned.
 
Thermal said:
That is a thick lapeled coat, right over left, no obvious buttons securing it at that area. If you reached for your abdomen, your hand would almost inevitably slide right under such a lapel. There's no fumbling at all to get under it.
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Uh, no. If you reach for your abdomen, your hand would go to your abdomen. His hand isn't on his abdomen. It's at his crotch.
Thermal said:
You're seeing what you want to see, facts be damned.
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So are you. I agree that it doesn't look like masturbating to me, it looks like he's adjusting his balls, but that's not a hand on an abdomen.
 
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