Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

You want to let them all in because you think they're not all perverts, and it would be unfair to exclude the hypothetical ones who aren't. I want them all kept out, because as sure as God made little green apples, some of them are.
Nope.

I mostly just decline to be the one to make the decision. They'll work it out. You know how it's often a bad idea to take sides when your kids are fighting over stupid stuff? Same thing. They'll work it out. They don't need or really even want my help.

I have my opinions, but I'm entirely clear on the fact that my own experiences and the opinions coming from that aren't typical.
 
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I was talking specifically about the argument that some pedo taking advantage means that the whole class of people should be tarnished, there. It shouldn't be taken more generally than that.
It's not obvious why the general principles you laid out would only apply only in one special case, and I was questioning those.
 
It's not obvious why the general principles you laid out would only apply only in one special case, and I was questioning those.
Well, there are a lot of things going on there with the traditional status beyond mere discrimination. You've got the whole body shame thing that comes from being constantly clothed, for one. Would it be better if we weren't? I certainly think so... body shame is learned. But the anxiety it can cause clearly isn't worth it for most. Yes, I'm sort of a nudist (not exclusively, mind you).

It's not the same thing as overt discrimination, though. It's the way you've been trained to behave your entire life, and that wasn't done to exclude them specifically.

So yes, it's different. You've basically got natural reality conflicting with a culturally-derived reality. That causes a bit of a disruption. No matter which way you decide it, somebody's going to experience anxiety.
 
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Well, you can suspect all you like. Women have been socialised (brainwashed) to believe they have to "be kind" to the most marginalised and oppressed group on the planet, that is white heterosexual middle-aged middle-class men who get off on LARPing their stereotypical image of a 1950s housewife.
Don't overlook the class angle to this. "Women" are not a homogenous group, and the interests of upper class women often align more with the interests of upper class men than the interests of lower class women. And it's primarily lower class women, not upper class women, who are vulnerable to the predations of males entering their spaces.
 
Who exactly is "they"?
It may not have been in that particular segment, but I'm pretty sure I made it clear that it'd be the generation making all the noise about it on both sides. And they won't agree. They never do. They'll just come up with a way to live with each other. Some of them will probably end up married with each other and still disagree about such things as what's appropriate in which circumstance.
 
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It may not have been in that particular segment, but I'm pretty sure I made it clear that it'd be the generation making all the noise about it on both sides. And they won't agree. They never do. They'll just come up with a way to live with each other.
Best we avoid telling them why we put that fence up in the first place.
 
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Well... also for those that didn't realize... my point wasn't that men are horrible (after all, I am one). My point is simply that these risks don't validate prosecuting or socially repressing the innocent along with the guilty.
Keeping males out of female spaces is neither prosecuting nor socially repressing them.
I can get this far, though. I propose that we at least stop the guilt-by-association nonsense implied by bringing up random cases where the law was actually broken. That has no relevance. Those were specific individuals, not an entire class of people. If we're going to condemn an entire class of people, I suggest we start with MEN (again, even though I am one). That'll make sure we get nearly all of them.
First, starting with men is PRECISELY what we're doing. Keep males out of female spaces. It's a very simple rule, and pretty effective.

Second, the individual cases are absolutely relevant. Yes, the law was broken in many of those cases, but allowing males into female spaces creates a vulnerability. And those individual cases demonstrate that vulnerability. The law is less likely to be broken if you don't create the vulnerability. That's why people lock their cars, they don't just depend on the fact that it's illegal to steal. That would be a monumentally stupid approach.
 
Don't overlook the class angle to this. "Women" are not a homogenous group, and the interests of upper class women often align more with the interests of upper class men than the interests of lower class women. And it's primarily lower class women, not upper class women, who are vulnerable to the predations of males entering their spaces.

That is an extremely good point.
 
It may not have been in that particular segment, but I'm pretty sure I made it clear that it'd be the generation making all the noise about it on both sides.
◊◊◊◊ that. First, young people are stupid and ignorant, they are no better equipped to figure this out. Second, whatever rules they come up with won't just affect them. Older people get affected too, so there is absolutely no reason to exclude them from decision making.
 
Nope.

I mostly just decline to be the one to make the decision. They'll work it out. You know how it's often a bad idea to take sides when your kids are fighting over stupid stuff? Same thing. They'll work it out. They don't need or really even want my help.

I have my opinions, but I'm entirely clear on the fact that my own experiences and the opinions coming from that aren't typical.

This superior "I'm the wise one and you're all a bunch of squabbling children" attitude is frankly annoying the tits off me, so I'll probably bow out of this part of the conversation.
 
Keeping males out of female spaces is neither prosecuting nor socially repressing them.

First, starting with men is PRECISELY what we're doing. Keep males out of female spaces. It's a very simple rule, and pretty effective.

Second, the individual cases are absolutely relevant. Yes, the law was broken in many of those cases, but allowing males into female spaces creates a vulnerability. And those individual cases demonstrate that vulnerability. The law is less likely to be broken if you don't create the vulnerability. That's why people lock their cars, they don't just depend on the fact that it's illegal to steal. That would be a monumentally stupid approach.
Amusing choice of metaphors. People around here typically don't merely fail to lock their cars... they usually leave their keys in them. Same people who absolutely insist that they need firearms for their own safety, weirdly enough.

Yes. I'm in the middle of nowhere.
 
Just more guilt by association. Did you really think I'd be impressed? Don't you think it's quite the stretch to compare me to a eugenics supporter?
He didn't do that, and you missed the point entirely, which has NOTHING to do with eugenics.

The section on eugenics is immediately before the section on his fence analogy, and Wikipedia section linking seems inconsistent and sometimes hilights that from the link. So I understand why you made this error, but it is an error. It's the fence analogy which is relevant here, NOT the section about eugenics. Read the fence analogy section. It's also worth looking up a longer quote from that section, since it provides more of an explanation of the logic behind his analogy.
 
◊◊◊◊ that. First, young people are stupid and ignorant, they are no better equipped to figure this out. Second, whatever rules they come up with won't just affect them. Older people get affected too, so there is absolutely no reason to exclude them from decision making.
But that's just it. They won't listen, anyway. We never did, and neither will their own children. This just isn't the sort of thing that the old people get to decide.
 
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The University of Sussex has been fined £585,000 by the higher education regulator, the Office for Students (OfS), for failing to uphold freedom of speech.

The OfS investigation started with the case of Prof Kathleen Stock, who left the university in 2021 after being accused of transphobia for her views on sex and gender issues.

The OfS said the university's policy statement on trans and non-binary equality, including a requirement to "positively represent trans people", could lead to staff and students preventing themselves from voicing opposing views.

The University of Sussex plans to legally challenge the OfS findings, vice-chancellor Prof Sasha Roseneil said.
 
Amusing choice of metaphors. People around here typically don't merely fail to lock their cars... they usually leave their keys in them.
That approach may work where you're from, but it doesn't scale. Likewise, allowing males into female spaces might work in some small tight-knit communities, but it doesn't scale.
 
It's the fence analogy which is relevant here, NOT the section about eugenics. Read the fence analogy section. It's also worth looking up a longer quote from that section, since it provides more of an explanation of the logic behind his analogy.
In order to address the Chesterton's fence problem in this specific case, one ought to be able to articulate why the general rule "Keep males out of female spaces" arose in the first place and then explain why those reasons no longer obtain now that the "generation making all the noise" is old enough to wield political power.

My apologies to @Manopolus for the confusion earlier, and I sincerely hope they take up this challenge.
 
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