Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[smartcooky]

If it's a problem, it's a problem. If you think men shouldn't compete in women's sports, then you think it's a problem all the way down the line. There is no "it's a problem but only at the very to" nuance here.

Also, you're eliding the other important aspect of this issue: Men claiming they have a right to compete in women's sports if they say they want to. Deny that right, and let each sports organization decide for itself its own policies, and I have no problem with men competing in women's sports where that policy is in effect (and the women know ahead of time what the policy is).

It's men showing up at the women's registration desk and saying they have a right to compete if they want, and being allowed to compete out of a fear of legal repercussions if they deny the right, that is the problem.

His shtick also does not address another important issue.... the harassment that women have had to ensure if they dare question the policy of allowing men to cosplay as women in female sports. Harrassment such as...

- being threatened with de-registration if they complain about it to the governing body.
- being forced to undergo "gender sensitivity training" if they do complain.
- being silenced in public.
- being threatened to have their scholarships or coaching funding terminated if they go public.
- being subject to letter writing/social media campaigns by TRAs aimed at employers, to have them terminated.
- being threatened with death and/or physical harm by TRAs

Just ask the young women on the UPenn swim teams what its like to undergo such harrassment.

Get rid of the entitlement to fiat self-ID in sports, prisons, and the other things, and the matter will probably sort itself out.

Yup. That was always the "bridge too far" in this issue.

 

[Rolfe]

I have no problem with men competing in women's sports where that policy is in effect (and the women know ahead of time what the policy is).

Does this mean you think it's fine for any sporting body to declare that men are welcome in the women's events so long as they make that clear and the women are aware of the rule? That's actually the case most of the time as it stands. The women's category is abolished that way just as effectively, and the women are no less unhappy about it.

 

[angrysoba]

His shtick also does not address another important issue.... the harassment that women have had to ensure if they dare question the policy of allowing men to cosplay as women in female sports. Harrassment such as...

- being threatened with de-registration if they complain about it to the governing body.
- being forced to undergo "gender sensitivity training" if they do complain.
- being silenced in public.
- being threatened to have their scholarships or coaching funding terminated if they go public.
- being subject to letter writing/social media campaigns by TRAs aimed at employers, to have them terminated.
- being threatened with death and/or physical harm by TRAs

Just ask the young women on the UPenn swim teams what its like to undergo such harrassment.


Yup. That was always the "bridge too far" in this issue.

It’s not a “schtick”. I’m pointing out that the stats are padded. I’ve already said that I am against transwomen competing in sports, or, perhaps better expressed by theprestige, that self-ID should be not be an allowed qualification for sports, and will further add that sporting agencies (as opposed to say, executive orders) should be the ones for allowing or disallowing transgender participation.

There are plenty of good reasons other than where someone placed in a park run or a marathon for letting transgender people compete or not. I’m not ignoring that at all. But if you make a particular argument, it is best to make a strong argument and not only that looks padded.

 

[Hercules56]

A lot of folks on the Left act like the struggle for Gay Rights is exactly the same as the push for Trans rights, and perhaps trans rights is simply a continuation of the war that gay rights won a decade ago.

I, disagree.

In my view, the issue of Gay rights is VERY different than the issue of Trans rights.

Gays, wanted the right to be who they ARE, and not suffer discrimination for it.

They are attracted to people of the same sex, and they fought for the right to not suffer discrimination in housing, education, employment public services, marriage, because of it.

Trans rights, well, its a little more tricky.

Trans persons wanted to identify as a different sex than what they were born. And they want everyone to be FORCED to recognize it.

They want society to be FORCED to recognize their change in sex identity, and be punished if they do not.

More importantly, they want to change themselves, and undergo surgery and hormone therapies, to change themselves in a way that makes them feel like they have changed their sex, even if the science clearly shows they have done no such thing.

They may appear more like a woman superficially, but on the inside, genetically, skeletally, their organs, they have not changed their sex.

This.....this is very different than what Gays asked from society. Gays have not asked us to recognize any changes they have made. They simply want to be who they obviously are and not have to hide it.




It is this very clear distinction why America is pushing back soo hard against the trans issue. And why even uber-Progressives like Gavin Newsom just declared that transwomen should not compete with biological women in sports competitions.


Discuss amongst yourselves. I'm forklempt.

 

[dirtywick]

i’m sure others will take issue with some of the more questionable assertions here.

but of all the things you wrote about i’m a little curious why them wanting to change themselves, take hormones, get surgery, etc to change to their appearance and make themselves feel better about their bodies something you take issue with

 

[angrysoba]

Yes, thoroughly interesting.

Also, I think you mean verklempt.

 

[Hercules56]

i’m sure others will take issue with some of the more questionable assertions here.

but of all the things you wrote about i’m a little curious why them wanting to change themselves, take hormones, get surgery, etc to change to their appearance and make themselves feel better about their bodies something you take issue with

I dont necessarily take issue with it, I think they should have the right to do whatever they want to themselves as adults. As long as they dont harm themselves.

 

[dirtywick]

I dont necessarily take issue with it, I think they should have the right to do whatever they want to themselves as adults. As long as they dont harm themselves.

ok, but just so you’re aware, you listed it as more important than that they want to force people to do things and listed nothing after it as even more important, so i had naturally assumed it was your most significant issue with trans rights. so your op is a little confusing

 

[Hercules56]

ok, but just so you’re aware, you listed it as more important than that they want to force people to do things and listed nothing after it as even more important, so i had naturally assumed it was your most significant issue with trans rights. so your op is a little confusing

Yes, the Gay rights movement didnt force me to do anything.

The Trans rights movement is forcing me to use special words, to recognize something i dont want to recognize, to force me to reject my understanding of science, etc. They also want to force women to compete against men in sports.

 

[dirtywick]

which is less important than…

 

[Hercules56]

which is less important than…

Huh?

 

[dirtywick]

you know what, it’s not important. you’ve clarified your position anyway so nothing else from me.

 

[Manopolus]

Fair enough, and I see the point. There does seem to be a demand that we recognize, for instance, that a trans-woman is no different from a woman. But there is a difference.

I would say that it's perfectly okay that they exist, however. I'll never challenge anyone's right to merely exist.

To be honest, the trans-sports thing is something I couldn't give a crap less about either way. I have no interest whatsoever in competitive sports, and would be perfectly fine if those didn't exist. So I don't tend to weigh in on the issue. I just don't even care what anybody decides should be done with that. I appreciate athletics and physical "fitness" (and BTW... I hate the word "fitness" due to it's clear association with eugenics), but have no appreciation whatsoever of why people think it has to involve a competition. Why can't we make ourselves more physically capable/active/beautiful/whatever without concocting arbitrary measures of comparison and giving away medals and money for something so inherently vain?

As far as I'm concerned, it's a completely pointless part of the economy and a waste of money.

But yeah, on top of that you've got the pronoun thing and situations where the job performance actually includes sexual attractiveness whether we like it or not, and all sort of other issues, including whether any laws or policies we have actually have the intended impact (acceptance). Or do they merely aggravate the issue through forever lingering resentments and paranoia?

...and then there's the quite natural fear of accidentally being attracted to a dude, or worse, actually having sex with them because you couldn't tell. No getting around that ick factor even for the otherwise open-minded. The sex of those they actually have relations with is pretty important to people. And thus, if there's a trans sneakily lurking around their territory... they damn sure want to know about it and so that they can avoid this.

To be perfectly blunt, that factor is sufficiently repulsive to some that it can almost ruin the casual sex-as-recreation lifestyle choice if such encounters become likely. I mean, we're talking about people's way-of-life, here!

I guess I don't have any answers. I guess all I can do with this issue is randomly add a few factors that confuse things. I literally stand precisely nowhere on this. I don't even have an opinion other than being mildly adverse to the noise, and I'm aware that I am probably wrong for feeling that way. The thing is, I'm too damn old for it to likely affect me in any way, and I have no family to protect from it -- if I would even consider it necessary.

Vaguely interested in the debate just because I like controversy... but then again, not really.

 

[angrysoba]

To be honest, the trans-sports thing is something I couldn't give a crap less about either way. I have no interest whatsoever in competitive sports, and would be perfectly fine if those didn't exist.

People need to stop making this argument, if it can even be called an argument.

 

[Manopolus]

People need to stop making this argument, if it can even be called an argument.

Well, yeah... more of a personal opinion than an argument. I'm okay with people liking sports. I just don't. Thus, I won't waste any effort on having an opinion about sport-dependant details. I guess it's just a roundabout notification that I'm disinterested in that particular aspect of the issue. Perhaps not worth saying, but I'm particularly fond of rambling.

 

[theprestige]

Well, yeah... more of a personal opinion than an argument. I'm okay with people liking sports. I just don't. Thus, I won't waste any effort on having an opinion about sport-dependant details.

You won't have any opinion about women who see the sport they love being taken over by men, you mean.

Empathy is a distinct human trait. You have no empathy for women athletes, is what you're saying. You don't have to care about what they care about, to understand the nature of their care, and sympathize with their situation. But you'd rather adopt an inhuman disinterest, rather than confront the problem.

 

[Manopolus]

You won't have any opinion about women who see the sport they love being taken over by men, you mean.

Empathy is a distinct human trait. You have no empathy for women athletes, is what you're saying. You don't have to care about what they care about, to understand the nature of their care, and sympathize with their situation. But you'd rather adopt an inhuman disinterest, rather than confront the problem.

Not really. It's more like being content to allow the meatheads to determine the details of their meathead culture amongst themselves. I'm not saying I can't relate. I just won't interfere, because I don't belong to that group. I'm perfectly capable of relating to all sides, but that doesn't mean that I'll have any desire to take sides. The best I could do is pretend to mediate as a neutral party, and I'd rather just stay out of it.

 

[theprestige]

Not really. It's more like being content to allow the meatheads to determine the details of their meathead culture amongst themselves. I'm not saying I can't relate. I just won't interfere, because I don't belong to that group. I'm perfectly capable of relating to all sides, but that doesn't mean that I'll have any desire to take sides. The best I could do is pretend to mediate as a neutral party, and I'd rather just stay out of it.

"Meatheads" doesn't seem very neutral to me.

The fact is, you don't care about women, if they're into athletic accomplishments.

When do you care about women, and their concerns?

 

[Manopolus]

"Meatheads" doesn't seem very neutral to me.

The fact is, you don't care about women, if they're into athletic accomplishments.

When do you care about women, and their concerns?

OR...

You could just take me at my word and assume that I just don't care about sports, instead. I don't know how that supposedly translates into not caring about women. Those categories don't exactly match.

And yes, "meatheads" is hardly neutral. But it doesn't refer to "women" or "trans" either one. It refers to people who are into sports, which would presumably be present on both sides of the argument.

I don't presume to know what is best for women. I think they usually prefer it that way... or so I've been told repeatedly. Except in dire emergencies, I generally leave them to tend to their own affairs.

 

[theprestige]

OR...

You could just take me at my word and assume that I just don't care about sports, instead. I don't know how that supposedly translates into not caring about women. Those categories don't exactly match.

If you care about women, then you care about the things they care about. But you don't, so you don't. Be honest, and stop telling people that you care about women.