I'd say like all surviving Christian religions they have their cognitive dissonance expertly trained. The answer is "yes" and "sort of" and "don't look behind the curtain" and "do you want us to use beech or oak for your pyre?"
Is Jesus's "this generation will certainly not pass" valid grounds for scepticism?
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Indeed. Had anybody never heard the basic stories of Christianity, they would not believe that anybody could fall for it. This is why Christian missionaries do not present the entire story, but small tidbits promising eternal worry-free life, that Jesus died for our sins etc.
Your point being?
People are not believing in Christianity because of the veracity of the stories, but because of the emotional content.
Because we are not talking about science, we are talking about religions each of which claim to have the truth, therefore when talking about answers to questions about doctrine or theological questions you need to identify which specific religion you are talking about.
Nope you are wrong about Calvinism. At the core of the clavanistic Christian religions is the belief that god has already decided who will be saved and there is nowt any human can do about that.
Yep.
Poem
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Which would only be significant if it wasn't an issue for what many consider to be the main alternative to the biblical perspective - science and in particular Neo-Darwinism.
Do all biologists consider the modern synthesis sufficient? No they don't.
Given this then I fail to see much significance to your point.
Poem
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Not my understanding. It just looks like you are using this as a straw man (I've done similar in the past).
And you didn't address all that I posted.
Of course, it applies just as much to a godless world. Free will just doesn't make sense, it's a logical impossibility. But that's just how things are. The motiveless universe didn't set up the senseless meat grinder, it just happened. No one's to blame for it.
In a world with God, God intentionally set up the senseless meat grinder, with rewards and punishments for souls that were never going to act differently than they do. Everything that happens is God's fault.
Poem
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Well, if we look at Collins - he would argue that we do not have to take Genesis 1-2 literally - he is an evolutionist after all. I assume he does so for much of the OT.
Again, I am not saying this makes sense to me (it doesn't), but when you have highly intelligent people believing in what you consider to be arrant nonsense, then it's not nothing.
Sure, I agree that for many it's belief in the emotional content.
Poem
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Just to be clear, that is a position you accept without hesitation?
It would render that whole Jesus as saviour story as total nonsense of course.
Poem
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Here's the difficult passage for Christians who reject Calvinism and which many here would point to as proof that God predestined all from the beginning:
Romans 9:6-21
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
Romans 9:6-21
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
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Define hesitation. At some point in my life I went through all sorts of mental gymnastics to make free will work, probably to stave off some sort of existential dread. But that was a long time ago. And the mental gymnastics didn't make sense. It's impossible to make free will work on any level. Once I accepted that, there were no more mental gymnastics, no more struggle to make anything work, because everything made perfect sense. The only problem were the implications, but life is what it is, and nothing can be done about it.
As for accepting it in daily life, it doesn't really work like that. Most of us, me included, live our lives in the delusion that there is free will. I can deduce it rationally, but ironically my body won't let me truly accept it, because it goes against everything billions of years of evolution have been striving towards. Life needs things to matter, especially one's own actions and decisions, even though it is all a lie. At best, I can force myself to see certain situations from that point of view for short amounts of time, or keep that idea at the back of my head, but I never really had any choice in the matter either.
The only other option would be a sort of enlightenment where one accepts everything, especially one's own death and suffering, with absolute detachment, without horror, blame, or the desire for something better. There might have been people throughout history who approached that state of being, but it's hard to tell, and it's not something a person can actually make themselves into. If it happens, it just happens.
Because science is not a religion your analogy fails.
Religions (or all that I am aware of) each offer a different set of truths; Christian religions only share some things in common. So for a Calvinist there is no way to salvation through human acts, you are either one of the elect or a reprobate, for a Roman Catholic there is salvation through the church, the sacraments, and good works.
It is not possible to answer a question about "What does Christianity say about X" with something that will hold for all Christian religions unless you want a literal encyclopaedia each time about what all the different Christian religions say about X. You need to define what Christian religion you are talking about when you ask "What does Christianity say about X" if you want a meaningful answer.
Skeptical Greg
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So, Jesus did not come to save everyone after all.
Yep, another example of the contortions the various Christian religions have to struggle with and for which there is no one answer, the answer will depend on the specific Christian religion you want to talk about.
Do you mean lurkers? You can't mean the participants who have posted as there isn't one that would agree with your statement.
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Poem
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Just to clarify, is that based on the Romans 9 passage I quoted? Is that the first time you have read it?
It sure is a difficult passage for Christianity...have always thought so.
Poem
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Typo?
I assume most here would point to that passage (including myself) and assume that it means what it appears to mean....and, rather than as Calvinists do accepting it as is, just simply reject God.
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