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Merged Bitcoin - Part 3

psionl0 said:
Nope. That part was about central banks changing interest rates. Anyway I am not going to watch the entire video again just to find the spot where the words "intrinsic value" are mentioned.
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ok, then don't.

psionl0 said:
Not surprising that you would refuse to differentiate between cryptos and ponzi schemes involving (usually new) cryptos. :rolleyes:
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there's no need to differentiate between them. none of them are operating any differently.

you say, oh well it doesn't need to have the other properties that gold and fiat have to have intrinsic value because it's value is that it has a price, and it's derived from it's utility as a currency. except, it's been 20 years and it's not used as currency anywhere, and it's limited supply and decentralized and deregulated nature make it a poor currency offering little protection from fraud and currency manipulation. and behold, all it's being used for is it's being bought and you're hoping you can sell it later at more than you bought it for, meaning you're buying it and sitting on it hoping more people come in to buy, meaning you need a constant stream of new investment for it to gain value, since it's not doing anything else. and that's awful close to ponzi territory, and a bunch of venture capitalists and fraudsters are buying it up like crazy telling you how great it is.

new cryptos just drop the pretense that they're doing anything else. but the underlying operation is the same.
 
dirtywick said:
there's no need to differentiate between them. none of them are operating any differently.

< strawman snipped >
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Of course you are going to say they are the same. You are just trying to revive the stupid argument that bitcoin itself is a ponzi scheme (without any operators). It is just your discredited mlm argument with the word ponzi substituted for mlm.
 
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but it's ok because you're not refuting it any of it, just complaining that it gets written
 
it doesn't matter anyway btw. either you're right, and bitcoin is adopted as currency revolution, even though in the 10 years that transpired since you refuted all these arguments and now don't bother to anymore it hasn't happened, maybe it's still coming. or everyone else is right, and it's just scam after scam, the thing that's currently happening.

i'm just a mechanic, i'm not a finance guy or an economist. i read and learn about things i have an interest in, what you're saying, which is often very little substantively and often misinterpreting the arguments or information in the posts you quote, doesn't make sense. what they're saying does. it better reflects the real world, where business is conducted with fiat and works under regulation, and crypto, including bitcoin, is just a stream of scams and ponzis that go unpunished. i don't know why would anyone want to get involved in that at this point
 
psionl0 said:
So something has "intrinsic value" if it generates an income or it is gold? :rolleyes:
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It's an extrinsic value, as it comes from lack of regulation and connection to the banking system that is closely monitored by authorities.
Other financial instruments have the same properties, so it's not anything Bitcoin specific.
Online gift cards do very much the same.
 
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dirtywick said:
but it's ok because you're not refuting it any of it, just complaining that it gets written
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It is not necessary for me to type out the refutations over and over again. You are just another Johnny come lately who thinks that nobody has made your faulty arguments before.

dirtywick said:
< strawman snipped >

< strawman snipped > and crypto, including bitcoin, is just a stream of scams and ponzis that go unpunished. i don't know why would anyone want to get involved in that at this point
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You still insist that there is no difference between a crypto and somebody running a crypto scam. That's how worthless your arguments are.
 
psionl0 said:
It is not necessary for me to type out the refutations over and over again. You are just another Johnny come lately who thinks that nobody has made your faulty arguments before.
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oh, well try doing it once. how far back in the thread would i have to go?

psionl0 said:
You still insist that there is no difference between a crypto and somebody running a crypto scam. That's how worthless your arguments are.
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i've been saying crypto scams are it's primary utility, none of the other utility that you claim it has where it derives it's value is happening. that's the problem with it, it solves a small problem or two with fiat but creates a system where fraud is the primary means of return. that's not great.

oh, but psion sighed and said debunked, he talked about how great it was ten years ago. even though none of the great stuff he talked about happened, guess that's case closed.

talk about worthless arguments, you haven't even made one.
 
There is no difference crypto and somebody running a crypto scam if it doesn't come as part of a Government monetary system: on its own, crypto has no enforcement mechanism suitable to commerce, as attempts to make self-executing contracts on the blockchain have shown.
Governments are spending a lot of resources to combat crypto fraud and theft, which would not be necessary if it could stand on its own.
It is just another very typical example of tech-bro culture, which privatizes the gains and socialises the risks.
 
As far as I gather, BitCoin is promoted as a currency, but its primary function is to be an investment object. Hardly anyone (outside El Salvador?) is using it to pay for anything.

Does that make it a scam?
 
steenkh said:
As far as I gather, BitCoin is promoted as a currency, but its primary function is to be an investment object. Hardly anyone (outside El Salvador?) is using it to pay for anything.

Does that make it a scam?
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well, yeah. any increase in price is due to somebody else purchasing some, people in early benefit more at the cost of new purchases. depends on a constant stream of new buyers for growth. all things in common with a ponzi, legitimate investments at least would produce some value on their own independent of trading. so, what value is being produced?

it’s been pointed out that gold is a similar comparison, but for reasons that have been outlined several times above it’s an exception.

now you can say, oh but there’s utility in utilizing it as a currency, and that’s where its value is. well, nobody is doing that for a variety of reasons. how much utility is there in a currency that fluctuates in value wildly day to day, is backed by nothing, and that no one will accept for payment? i’d say very little.

oh but it’s new tech, people haven’t figured it out yet. 20 years later. people have figured out what it’s best at. look around.
 
steenkh said:
As far as I gather, BitCoin is promoted as a currency, but its primary function is to be an investment object. Hardly anyone (outside El Salvador?) is using it to pay for anything.

Does that make it a scam?
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No but it shows that setting an upper limit to btc renders it deflationary. To buy a house today would take a fraction of the number of btc that the same house would have cost even 5 years ago. This rate of deflation is a massive disincentive to spending btc.

If Nakamoto had intended btc to be used as a currency then he should have built some inflation into it (eg let the block reward increase by 2-3% per year). After all, even the supply of gold increases over time. Alternatively, he could have built some demurrage into it. Frei coin was designed that way (the amount of coin in your wallet decreases continuously at a rate of 5% per year). The idea never took off (too late) because it makes the crypto unattractive as an investment in its own right.
 
steenkh said:
As far as I gather, BitCoin is promoted as a currency, but its primary function is to be an investment object. Hardly anyone (outside El Salvador?) is using it to pay for anything.

Does that make it a scam?
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I don't think anybody inside El Salvador uses it for currency either. When Bukele gave bitcoin wallets with a tiny amount of bitcoin in them to every El Salvadorain over 99% of the wallets were emptied and converted into dollars and left permanently empty.
 
By the way, there is something I don’t understand about Bitcoins. One Bitcoin is worth a lot, so that in itself must make it difficult to work with as currency. How is this solved? Can Bitcoins be broken up into smaller amounts? BitCents?
 
steenkh said:
By the way, there is something I don’t understand about Bitcoins. One Bitcoin is worth a lot, so that in itself must make it difficult to work with as currency. How is this solved? Can Bitcoins be broken up into smaller amounts? BitCents?
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yes they can, you can divide one into 100 million satoshis.
 
steenkh said:
By the way, there is something I don’t understand about Bitcoins. One Bitcoin is worth a lot, so that in itself must make it difficult to work with as currency. How is this solved? Can Bitcoins be broken up into smaller amounts? BitCents?
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Obviously. Let's look at some exchange, like here: https://www.bitstamp.net/market/tradeview/
On the right you should see order book, with current amounts being traded.
 
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