What did Democrats do wrong?

[Ziggurat]

No, dude. Trump is being an absolute dickhead.

That's not mutually exclusive with what I said. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand: Zelensky screwed up. His job was easy, and he still failed.

 

[Ziggurat]

It was pretty clear to me that Trump wants to do business with Russia

Dude. Europe is already doing business with Russia. They sent more money to Russia than they did to Ukraine.

and he went into this meeting looking for an excuse to blame Zelinsky for the war

The meeting was going well until the end, when Zelinsky screwed up. You can say that Trump was looking for an excuse, but even if we accept that, why in the everloving ◊◊◊◊ did Zelinsky deliver it to him on a silver platter?

The fact that Ukraine does not trust Putin is the biggest stumbling block to peace

Sure. But all of that can be addressed without trying to contradict Trump in front of the cameras in the oval office. That was stupid and unnecessary. Zelinksy is either getting bad advice about how to handle Trump (and doing it right isn't exactly hard), or he's not taking the good advice he's getting.

Blame Trump all you want to, but Zelinsky dropped the ball here. And given that Ukraine is the one that's going to suffer from a souring of the relationship, he cannot escape blame. He's the one who needs this to work, not Trump. And he's acting like he doesn't understand that.

 

[dirtywick]

i think you’re actively failing the m&m test right now

 

[plague311]

Dude. Europe is already doing business with Russia. They sent more money to Russia than they did to Ukraine.

The meeting was going well until the end, when Zelinsky screwed up. You can say that Trump was looking for an excuse, but even if we accept that, why in the everloving ◊◊◊◊ did Zelinsky deliver it to him on a silver platter?

Sure. But all of that can be addressed without trying to contradict Trump in front of the cameras in the oval office. That was stupid and unnecessary. Zelinksy is either getting bad advice about how to handle Trump (and doing it right isn't exactly hard), or he's not taking the good advice he's getting.

Blame Trump all you want to, but Zelinsky dropped the ball here. And given that Ukraine is the one that's going to suffer from a souring of the relationship, he cannot escape blame. He's the one who needs this to work, not Trump. And he's acting like he doesn't understand that.

And that is a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ masterclass in victim blaming. "Why did Zelenskyy make Trump do this to him? Trump doesn't like hitting Zelenskyy, but he's trying to make Zelenskyy a better person."

My ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ God I hope I never, ever, in my life get to the point where I dick ride any politician with the rigor that Trump supporters hop on. What is it about this man that causes grown people to admire him, defend him, and think of him as this ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ uncontested God to be worshiped as he never does wrong? Makes me gag.

 

[Donal]

Do you know why we kept testing nuclear weapons for decades? It wasn't just new designs. How nuclear weapons age is a nontrivial problem. You know how we deal with it now that we don't do live tests? Do you think the Norks can do that? The fact that they aren't still testing isn't a small thing. That doesn't mean they are disarmed, sure, but it's a long ways from nothing. It was certainly worth the price of being polite to Kim.

Hey, good job only taking 2 words out of my entire post. That is something a person with integrity does.

So, we were blowing up new nukes morning, noon, and night every day? Or did we test when we had a new breakthrough or some perceived improvement?

Because DPRK was still researching nuclear weapons. And, as you cut out, delivery systems.

 

[Ziggurat]

all Zelensky had to do was thank Trump for taking all of Ukraine's future earnings in return for absolutely nothing

No. All Zelensky had to do was thank Trump for all the aid that the US has already provided, and say that he's looking forward to working with us in the future.

- how ungrateful of him not to do that.

Yes, actually. Zelensky owes the survival of his country to Trump. Trump provided lethal aid during his first term. The Javelins and Stingers he provided were critical to stopping Russia's initial thrust into Ukraine. Obama never provided any lethal aid at all, and Biden essentially green-lit the invasion. Yeah, I know Zelensky wants more, and it's OK to ask for more. But it was monumentally stupid to not openly and repeatedly offer thanks to the aid he's already gotten. That's what you ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ do in this sort of situation. And if you feel otherwise, you bite your ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ tongue because it's not about you.

Zelensky needs Trump. Trump doesn't need Zelensky. You may not like that reality, but that is reality, and it's foolish to behave as if it's not.

 

[Donal]

You're arguing with a cluster of people who think that being uncivil, disrespectful, and rude is a noble end in and of itself as long as they're being mean to "those people". They've fully embraced intolerance as a worthy goal.

So now you disagree with Zig?

 

[Thermal]

Failing to belly up for Trump and Putin is not a test worth passing.

We didn't ask Kuwait to belly up when Saddam got rowdy. We weren't very patient with Afghanistan when we told them to surrender Al-Queda members. But Mother Russia attacks its neighbor, and the victim is supposed to shut up and do as it's told by Putin and his puppy?

The man's country has been under attack for flipping years, and the 'test' he's being given is to grovel appropriately? This ain't the US I know.

 

[Ziggurat]

And that is a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ masterclass in victim blaming.

Ukraine is a victim. Zelensky? He's not a victim, he's a politician. And if he wants to lead a nation at war, he can put on his big boy pants, swallow his ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ pride, and do what he needs to do in order to get the best deal he can. And if that means sucking up to an ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊, then by god you suck up to that ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. If he can't even do that, then why the ◊◊◊◊ is he even still in charge?

Trump isn't some unknown quantity, some unfathomable mystery. It was very predictable what would please him, and what would piss him off. And Zelensky chose to do what would predictably piss him off. You can blame Trump all you want to, but that doesn't change the fact that Zelensky could have easily played it differently, should have known to play it differently, and at no cost. You aren't even arguing that I'm wrong about that, you just don't like me saying Zelensky is responsible for the consequences of his choices.

 

[Ziggurat]

Failing to belly up for Trump and Purin is not a test worth passing.

Yes, actually it is. Because they're the two most important parties for Ukraine to deal with, and the only way to a negotiated peace is through them.

Perhaps you don't think Ukraine should negotiate peace. But be honest about what you're advocating then. And be aware that the US has no obligation to fund an endless war in Ukraine. Will Europe take up the slack?

We didn't ask Kuwait to belly up when Saddam got rowdy.

We didn't need to. They did anyways.

We weren't very patient with Afghanistan when we told them to surrender Al-Queda members.

Indeed, because we didn't actually need to negotiate with the Taliban. We could force our will. Ukraine is not in a similar position.

Again, if you think Ukraine shouldn't negotiate with Russia, then there's no problem. They can just keep fighting and dying.

The man's country has been under attack for flipping years, and the 'test' he's being given is to grovel appropriately? This ain't the US I know.

Saying "thank you" isn't groveling. You have a very peculiar view of what it means to show gratitude.

 

[Donal]

Ukraine is a victim. Zelensky? He's not a victim, he's a politician. And if he wants to lead a nation at war, he can put on his big boy pants, swallow his ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ pride, and do what he needs to do in order to get the best deal he can. And if that means sucking up to an ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊, then by god you suck up to that ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. If he can't even do that, then why the ◊◊◊◊ is he even still in charge?

So, you're proud we look like a bunch of wife beaters?

Trump isn't some unknown quantity, some unfathomable mystery.

And millions of people voted for him anyway. Shame on us.

It was very predictable what would please him, and what would piss him off.

not being Putin

And Zelensky chose to do what would predictably piss him off.

No, Zelensky knew where it was going. He would have given the God of the Underendowed the mineral rights he demanded, but Zelensky also wanted security guarantees. Captain Bankruptcy wouldn't do that.

You can blame Trump all you want to,

Because it is his fault. He behaved this way and disgraced us.

but that doesn't change the fact that Zelensky could have easily played it differently, should have known to play it differently, and at no cost. You aren't even arguing that I'm wrong about that, you just don't like me saying Zelensky is responsible for the consequences of his choices.

No cost? Ask all those contractors Trump reneged on about no cost. Ask all the towns and cities that still haven't been paid for hosting his klan rallies.

Zelensky already had a deal on almost all of Trump's terms. He just wanted to ensure the US would protect Ukraine after getting the mineral rights and not just cut another deal with Russia.

Only an idiot thinks there are good faith negotiations with Trump.

 

[Ziggurat]

So, we were blowing up new nukes morning, noon, and night every day? Or did we test when we had a new breakthrough or some perceived improvement?

Wow. I pointed out your error, and you still missed it. Nuclear testing wasn't done just to verify new designs. It was also done to verify the behavior of weapons as they age, because guess what: they change over time. A nuclear weapon on the shelf for 20 years isn't the same as a nuclear weapon fresh off the assembly line.

Because DPRK was still researching nuclear weapons. And, as you cut out, delivery systems.

You don't actually know how we research nuclear weapons without detonating them, do you?

 

[plague311]

Ukraine is a victim. Zelensky? He's not a victim, he's a politician. And if he wants to lead a nation at war, he can put on his big boy pants, swallow his ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ pride, and do what he needs to do in order to get the best deal he can. And if that means sucking up to an ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊, then by god you suck up to that ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. If he can't even do that, then why the ◊◊◊◊ is he even still in charge?

Because he was voted in by his ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ citizens and you, Trump and no one else should be able to decide who the ◊◊◊◊ leads a country that isn't ours. He's trying to get the best deal he can and he wanted security protections, which is ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ reasonable when signing away his country's mineral rights. Jesus Christ dood. Too bad you don't lead Ukraine. Looks like you'd be all about complimenting Trump on camera.

Trump isn't some unknown quantity, some unfathomable mystery. It was very predictable what would please him, and what would piss him off. And Zelensky chose to do what would predictably piss him off. You can blame Trump all you want to, but that doesn't change the fact that Zelensky could have easily played it differently, should have known to play it differently, and at no cost. You aren't even arguing that I'm wrong about that, you just don't like me saying Zelensky is responsible for the consequences of his choices.

Of course you're wrong. People shouldn't have to bow down, and blow some guy for military assistance. The US should be providing assistance. Putin broke the Budapest Memorandum when they invaded. Ukraine deserves that assistance because we ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ said we'd give it to them.

You're wrong. You're grossly wrong. You're ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ insanely, laughably, pathetically, and stupidly wrong.

 

[Donal]

Wow. I pointed out your error, and you still missed it. Nuclear testing wasn't done just to verify new designs. It was also done to verify the behavior of weapons as they age, because guess what: they change over time. A nuclear weapon on the shelf for 20 years isn't the same as a nuclear weapon fresh off the assembly line.

Oh, I didn't realize DPRK had a nuclear arsenal that old.

You don't actually know how we research nuclear weapons without detonating them, do you?

Yes, I do, that's why I laugh at the idea they stopped their program. Unlike Iran, who by all accounts did end their weapons program.

 

[Ziggurat]

No cost?

Yes. No cost. All Zelensky had to do at that meeting was say nice things, and I do indeed consider that no cost. He didn't have to make any concessions, just say nice things. And he couldn't even manage that. Even under your ideal president, all the hard details about security guarantees would have been worked out later, not at that meeting, so there was no need to press the issue right then.

 

[Ziggurat]

Oh, I didn't realize DPRK had a nuclear arsenal that old.

They will. You know that time doesn't stop, right?

Yes, I do

Oh, this ought to be good. Enlighten me.

 

[Ziggurat]

Of course you're wrong. People shouldn't have bow down, and blow some guy for military assistance.

You say I'm wrong, but this isn't actually an argument that I am wrong. You seem to have a problem differentiating between "should be" and "is". I made a statement about "is", and you're arguing that I'm wrong because that's not how things should be. But no matter what things should be like, that doesn't change what is.

And what is is that Zelensky could have made that meeting a success very easily, and he blew it. That's a statement about what is, not a statement about what should be. And that's true no matter what you think Trump should have done.

 

[Random]

Yes. No cost. All Zelensky had to do at that meeting was say nice things, and I do indeed consider that no cost. He didn't have to make any concessions, just say nice things. And he couldn't even manage that. Even under your ideal president, all the hard details about security guarantees would have been worked out later, not at that meeting, so there was no need to press the issue right then.

Dude, at the end of the meeting, Trump was asked what would happen if Russia broke off peace talks. Here is Trumps response:

Reporter: “What if Russia breaks peace talks? What do you do then?”

Trump: “What are you saying?”

Vance: “She‘s asking what if Russia breaks the cease fire?”

Trump: “What if anything? What if a bomb drops on your head right now? Okay, what if they broke it? I don‘t know. They broke it with Biden because Biden didn‘t respect him. They didn‘t respect Obama. They respect me. Let me tell you, Putin went through a hell of a lot with me. He went through a phony witch hunt where they used him and Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia ... You ever hear of that deal? That was a phony. That was a phony Hunter Biden, Joe Biden scam. Hillary Clinton, shifty Adam Schiff, it was a Democrat scam. And he had to go through that. And he did go through it. We didn‘t end up in a war. And he went through it. He was accused of all that stuff. He had nothing to do with it. It came out of Hunter Biden‘s bathroom. It came out of Hunter Biden‘s bedroom. It was disgusting. And then they said, oh, oh, the laptop from hell was made by Russia. The 51 agents The whole thing was a scam. And he had to put up with that. He was being accused of all that stuff. All I can say is this: he might have broken deals with Obama and Bush, and he might have broken them with Biden. He did maybe, maybe he didn‘t. I don‘t know what happened, but he didn‘t break them with me. He wants to make a deal…

…The problem is I've empowered you to be a tough guy, and I don't think you'd be a tough guy without the United States. And your people are very brave, but you're either going to make a deal or we're out, and if we're out, you'll fight it out. I don't think it's going to be pretty, but you'll fight it out, but you don't have the cards, but once we sign that deal you're in a much better position. But you're not acting at all thankful and that's not a nice thing, I'll be honest. That's not a nice thing… All right. I think we‘ve seen enough…

“This is going to be great television. I will say that.”

I really don't think Zelensky was the problem here.

 

[plague311]

You say I'm wrong, but this isn't actually an argument that I am wrong.

No, the rest of my post was an argument why you're wrong. I'm assuming that's why you cut it out. Like you always do. Like you just did to Donal. It helps you build your strawman and let loose a flow of nonsense while you pat yourself on the back and tell everyone else how right you are and how wrong they are. It's literally all you do.

You seem to have a problem differentiating between "should be" and "is". I made a statement about "is", and you're arguing that I'm wrong because that's not how things should be. But no matter what things should be like, that doesn't change what is.

Save it, I don't care lol.

And what is is that Zelensky could have made that meeting a success very easily, and he blew it. That's a statement about what is, not a statement about what should be. And that's true no matter what you think Trump should have done.

I. Don't. Give. A. ◊◊◊◊. About. Your. Trump. Excuse. Making. Can I make that clearer? No idea who you think you're fooling here but we gave Ukraine our assurances that we would be there if Russia went after them. We owe this to them and you dick riding Trump all of the time doesn't change that.

So like I said, you look foolish. The US, and trump and his little bitch boy cheerleading VP, is in the wrong. It's that easy.

 

[theprestige]

That's not mutually exclusive with what I said. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand: Zelensky screwed up. His job was easy, and he still failed.

Zelensky has probably the hardest job in the world, at the moment.

And Trump was being an absolute, totally gratuitous, counter-productive, ignorant and uncharitable dickhead.

Trump's job was much easier. All he had to do was cut Zelensky some slack, or just not take things in this direction to begin with.