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Split Thread Diversity Equity and Inclusion and merit in employment etc

arthwollipot said:
Definitions were asked for, so here are mine:


www.dictionary.com

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!
www.dictionary.com www.dictionary.com


www.dictionary.com

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!
www.dictionary.com www.dictionary.com


www.dictionary.com

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!
www.dictionary.com www.dictionary.com

If anyone is using a definition different from these, I do not accept that we are talking about anything like the same thing.
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God, I hate the way the new forum software handles URLs!

But I don't think dictionary definitions are actually helpful in this. DEI, whether you're for or agin it, is a thing itself. (Or, in my view, a whole rainbow of things from which some take some parts, others take others, and nobody takes everything.) So the definitions really ought to be the working definitions of whatever body --company, agency, etc-- is putting DEI into practice (or claiming to). I said earlier what my own employer thinks is DEI, and it seems pretty harmless to me. What it's done so far with it has also been harmless, in my opinion. We haven't instituted racial hiring quotas, nobody's set fire to the bulletin board for Black History Month (yet, I guess there are still 8 days left they could), and the LGBTQED club hasn't converted anybody who wasn't asking for it.
 
arthwollipot said:
I don't think it is. The rainbow of things are intended to address issues of diversity, equity and inclusion as defined by the dictionary.
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What do the people doing a DEI program think DEI is? What specifically are they attempting to achieve, and how are they going about it?

This is what I mean when I say talking generalities gets us nowhere.

Example 1: "95% of small businesses in this city are owned by white people, despite out city population being 45% black people. We should institute a civic program that issues grants and loans to black-owned small business start ups." Is that DEI? Is it racist? Is it good? Is it evil?

Example 2: "90% of all the grocery stores in this city are located in the four southernmost ZIP codes, leaving the entire north side of the city a food desert. We should institute a civic program that issues tax rebates to grocery stores opening up in the north of the city." (Additional fact: the north side of the city is 85% non-white in population, the south side is 75% white.) Is that DEI? Is it racist? Is it good? Is it evil?

Example 3: "We're putting on a musical stage play version of Buffy the Vampire Slayer! Let's do colorblind casting!" DEI? Racist? Good? Evil?

Example 4: "We're putting on a musical stage play version of Living Single! Let's do colorblind casting!" DEI? Racist? Good? Evil?

Myself, I'd say
1, 2, and 3 are fine, but 4 is a bad idea.
 
I'd think that if inclusion was the goal, we'd jettison all the alphabet soup and hyphenations as those are inherently exclusionary.
 
Trausti said:
Isn't it preferable to judge people by their merit rather than identity marks?
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Depends on the purpose of the activity, and the outcome. If you're attempting to cast someone for the role of Othello and insist on not looking at "identity marks" you're going to have a realism problem.

Or consider how many gay bars die. First they're for the gays. Obviously, the whole point of them is to be a place where gay people can get together in their own place. Then the straight women start showing up, because they want to drink and have fun and avoid the straight guys who bother them. Then the straight guys start showing up because that's where the straight women are. Then the gays stop going because what was a gay bar is now so inclusive it's exactly like the other 99 bars in the city: full of straight people.

Not everything has to be inclusive. Workplaces? Probably yes. Your social club? Probably no. Last time I went to church it was 100% people belonging to just that religion. Not very inclusive.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Depends on the purpose of the activity, and the outcome. If you're attempting to cast someone for the role of Othello and insist on not looking at "identity marks" you're going to have a realism problem.

Or consider how many gay bars die. First they're for the gays. Obviously, the whole point of them is to be a place where gay people can get together in their own place. Then the straight women start showing up, because they want to drink and have fun and avoid the straight guys who bother them. Then the straight guys start showing up because that's where the straight women are. Then the gays stop going because what was a gay bar is now so inclusive it's exactly like the other 99 bars in the city: full of straight people.

Not everything has to be inclusive. Workplaces? Probably yes. Your social club? Probably no. Last time I went to church it was 100% people belonging to just that religion. Not very inclusive.
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Well, I'm with you there. Like when DEI came for Anne Boleyn.
 
Trausti said:
Well, I'm with you there. Like when DEI came for Anne Boleyn.
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Sigh. I'm not familiar with the work you're probably referencing but I can extrapolate what it's about, and --another sigh-- you missed the point. Othello's race is central to the character and the plot of the play, it is a necessary characteristic. The historical Anne Boleyn happened to be white, sure, but it's not central to her character in a fictionalized representation of history, even an accurate one, is it? Did the historical Anne Boleyn make a big deal of being white? Was it a thing about her that was a big deal, and affected what happened to her?

eta: and to forestall: yes, it works for white people too. A "King and I" production where the main character isn't foreign to Siam wouldn't make sense. Another "Dances With Wolves" isn't going to cast a Native American for the Kevin Costner role because that wouldn't make sense.
 
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arthwollipot said:
Definitions were asked for, so here are mine:


www.dictionary.com

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!
www.dictionary.com www.dictionary.com


www.dictionary.com

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!
www.dictionary.com www.dictionary.com


www.dictionary.com

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!
www.dictionary.com www.dictionary.com

If anyone is using a definition different from these, I do not accept that we are talking about anything like the same thing.
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Then you must agree that the companies (WalMart, Microsoft, Amazon, Toyota, etc.) who are dropping DEI en masse must be dropping the bad kind of DEI, not the kind that you found in the dictionary.
 
Brainster said:
Then you must agree that the companies (WalMart, Microsoft, Amazon, Toyota, etc.) who are dropping DEI en masse must be dropping the bad kind of DEI, not the kind that you found in the dictionary.
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Well here's the problem. They're not making a distinction, so they're actually dropping both.
 
arthwollipot said:
That's going to be the effect, even if it isn't the intent.

Are you setting up some kind of gotcha with these questions?
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Nope, just trying to figure out how you think these companies justify dropping DEI. Part of the WHCMS conspiracy seems to be out, and I gather since it is not the intent, you are going for the "foolish corporations cutting their own throats" gambit?
 
arthwollipot said:
Just gonna leave this here...

View attachment 59140
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Damn, that post aged badly:

Authorities have identified the suspect in the stabbing death of a Cal Fire captain in San Diego County.

According to the sheriff's office, 53-year-old Yolanda Marodi is wanted in connection with the death of Rebecca "Becky" Marodi.
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It had nothing to do with blowback over DEI, just a basic case of domestic violence.
 
I caught the tail end of an interview with the director of the Illinois State Police last night on NPR. He was asked about the "30 by 30" program in light of the anti-DEI initiatives. ("30 by 30" is an objective that females make up 30% of new recruits by the year 2030. I didn't hear the full answer, but the this is the gist I got:
  • The "30 by 30" initiative has nothing to do with DEI. It has to do with addressing needs to improve the effectiveness of law enforcement.
  • There are a lot of different groups of people in Illinois.
  • Law enforcement needs an extensive toolset in order to effectively deal with the various groups.
  • He talked about building trust a lot.
  • It's a useful tool for law enforcement to be made up of these various groups. (I didn't hear past this point, but I assume it made it easier to build trust, which facilitates communication and cooperation.)
Not mentioned in the part of the interview that I heard, but an example I extrapolate from that is that female officers are likely to be more effective at interviewing rape, sexual assault, and domestic violence victims.

Similarly, extending to the field, I'm in, an argument that sometimes one's demographics can be a tool that assists in other areas, such as data collection. Supposes I want to run a drinking and well water study on a Navajo Reservation. I can't do it, if I can't get people to voluntarily let my sample collector onto their property and into their home. It might be of value to specifically prefer someone of native American background when making the hire. It's an additional qualification. (Now, we've never made such a consideration, but in retrospect such a consideration probably would have helped improve access and the amount and quality of data we were able to collect.) (And, no we haven't collected data from a Navajo reservation. But we have in minority communities in Chicago.)

There are some places that do DEI by giving an advantage in hiring. If there is no benefit to doing so, I disagree with that.

There are some places (here) that do DEI by trying to ensure that everyone gets fair consideration by warning about biases. I agree with that.

There are some people who see the one above and decide instead to favor a minority. These people are not following the DEI policy.

There are some places (here) that do DEI by trying to advertise so that the applicant pool is as diverse as possible, but give no preference in the hiring process. I agree with that.

There are some places (here) where DEI does things like provide for feminine needs in bathrooms. I agree with that.

There are some places (here) where a major DEI function is to make sure that all employees have a non-hostile work environment. I agree with that.

There are some posters on this board who may say some of the things I listed are not DEI because it doesn't match up with what they consider to be DEI. Those posters are incorrect. There are many ways in which DEI have been implemented. Those posters are not the arbiters of the definition, and neither are the authors they cite as examples. Looking at the real world, DEI is a broad concept that includes some good implementations and some bad. Go after the bad implementations, but don't punish the good ones in the process.
 
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