Split Thread Diversity Equity and Inclusion and merit in employment etc

Just gonna leave this here...

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You can insinuate without evidence whatever you like.

Alternatively:

Investigators say Marodi knew her attacker and called her death an act of domestic violence.
“I don’t know who is responsible, but it seems it was personal,” said Victoria Bradley, who knows Marodi’s mother. “I can’t even imagine what she’s going through. It’s just devastating, every parent’s worst nightmare.”
 
That article is complete ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. An opinion piece that cherry picks sources, supported by AI images and memes.

There. I've provided more reasons for dismissing your article than you provided for dismissing mine.
Look, arth, we actually read and considered the article you posted. It's clear, however, that you did NOT actually read this one, you're just dismissing it out of hand because you believe it conflicts with your bias.

What you seem to have missed in your hurry to belittle your fellow posters is that this is referencing academic work, by predominantly left-leaning academics, who foresaw problems from politicizing education and academia.

You assert that it has "cherry picked" its sources, but I don't get the impression you have any idea what those sources or saying, nor have you in any fashion looked to see whether an opposing view is available. The author has presented over 80 articles that address the risks of politicizing education, and the easily foreseeable negative consequences of doing so. The author does not express support for the actions Trump has taken. While my google-fu isn't fantastic, I can't seem to find any articles extolling the benefits and virtues of embedding political views into education.
 
You assert that it has "cherry picked" its sources
The thing is, cherry picking isn't automatically a problem. It's a problem if you represent a cherry picked sample as if it were a representative sample, but that's not what's going on in that link. Cherry picked examples of something properly demonstrate that the thing exists, and if that's the point, then there's nothing wrong with cherry picking. And that very much is the point here. Some leftists within academia warned that politicization of academia posed a risk to academia. The point is not that most academics took this viewpoint (obviously they didn't, or the academia wouldn't have been so politicized), but that the warnings were there. What's happening now shouldn't have come as a surprise.
 
I'm about to head off on a long trip and won't likely be in a position to respond to much. I think there's a lot of room for debate on just what DEI does and does not imply, and what is needed to make things fair and democratic. Things are not perfect. Good ideas can be corrupted. Any time there's a rule, good or bad, someone somewhere will screw it up. But when looking at this kind of argument, I am always reminded that many people including, I think, some here, dismissed Kamala Harris as a "DEI" hire, and thus inherently unqualified. We are now reaping the reward for such ideas, and for the unfortunate fact that, whatever DEI actually means and demands, a large number of people do, in fact, automatically disqualify people of diverse race or ethnicity on the grounds of race or ethnicity.

Right now, of course, the anti-DEI movement has gained momentum and nearly everyone is falling into line. What anyone says about it is largely ineffectual. DEI is being blamed for all sorts of things. I predict without presenting qualification that the result will not be beneficial to our society, but we'll see.
 
What I find most amazing is that so many people apparently think "DEI" is just one thing, one set of policies and procedures, that is bought off a shelf and it's the same thing everywhere it's referred to. That if Company A says it values DEI then that must necessarily mean it's doing exactly the same thing in the same way that Company B is doing. Even religions don't operate that way, and most of them believe they're supposed to!

So in addition to defining terms, you're going to have to cite specific policies and practices or else you're just babbling generalities. If you honestly believe that "let's let the Girl Scouts use Conference Room B on Wednesday afternoons" is the same thing as "it is now forbidden to hire anybody except Inuit Hindus" then you're probably too silly to be debating things online in the first place. Go look at pornography instead, I've heard there's some really good stuff out there now.
 
And yet when it comes to female bathrooms, that's apparently not discrimination because reasons.

These programs are safe spaces for black students, and the Yearslong Campaign is denying those spaces to those students.
According to the logic used by many people regarding racial disparity and discrepancies in school populations, "safe space" is nothing more than segregation in a poor disguise.

How does one enforce such a safe space? Security will physically remove anyone who does not fit in? Expel them from school?
 
If it were that, then it would be. It isn't.
Explain your reasoning here. We have groups that exclude a set of people from participation on the basis of their skin color alone, and you seem to be perfectly fine with that... while simultaneously arguing that it doesn't exist?

For example:
British Columbia school separates indigenous children from others, and provides pizza to the indigenous kids while denying it to other kids, and also refuses to allow parents to pay for an all inclusive pizza party to smooth over the hurt feelings of the excluded kids.


That's because that's not the argument I'm making. The argument I'm making is that inclusion is justifiable. You know, making sure that everybody gets a chance at the pie. Racists think that this means that white people get shorted by black people being included.
Not really though, not since the early 70s in the US for the most part. What we're seeing right now, however, is white people being excluded, which really isn't inclusion now is it?
Sexists think that this means that men get shorted by women being included.
Again, pretty much since the late 70s to early 80s, this really isn't happening.
Transphobes think that this means that cis women get shorted by trans women being included.
Let's be clear here, almost all of us have no objection to transgender identified people being included in employment, housing, etc. No objection at all. On the other hand... most people object to males being included in single-sex spaces and services where sex actually matters. If someone sets up a "women's book club" I don't think anyone outside of a few loonies are going to have a problem with a transgender identified male joining, most wouldn't object to males joining regardless of how they identify. But that's something entirely different from giving males the right to use female single-sex showers over the objection of females, or be housed in female single-sex jails, or compete in female athletics. And that isn't because they identify as transgender, it's because they are male, and these are situations where sex makes a difference. Including males in these specific types of situations actually DOES end up displacing, disadvantaging, and increasing risk for females.
If you really think discrimination is bad, then you should be full-throated in supporting DEIA programs. Instead, you fixate on those cases where DEIA was used by bad-faith actors as a hammer and use those to justify all of the attempts to discriminate that genuine DEIA programs are fighting. Because that is what the Yearslong Campaign has brainwashed you to do.
I already support, and will continue to wholeheartedly support, ignoring surface-level differences that aren't material and focusing on content of character, skills, and merit across the board.

But I'm getting very tired of this bait and switch that you keep doing. Look, I get what DEI is *supposed to be*, what it has been *described as*. But you've been provided a substantial amount of information about the US that demonstrates that what is has been *implemented as* is NOT what you keep talking about. In the US, in a huge number of situations over the past decade, it has NOT been the ideal that you value. It has been actually put in place in ways that ARE discriminatory.

Why do you keep ignoring the many cases where actual racial discrimination and exclusion are occurring?
 
Should black people with sickle cell trait be treated the same as all the other recruits, with no regard for skin colour? Or is there "justification for discrimination" here?

Genuine question, that I'd really like you to think about.

If a person has a medical condition that prevents them from being capable of meeting the physical requirements of a job, do you think they should get special treatment that reduces their expectations?

If someone has Parkinson's, for example, should we reduce the expectations of a surgeon having steady hands? If someone has muscular dystrophy, should we reduce the expectation of firefighters being able to carry heavy loads? If someone has congestive heart failure, should we reduce the expectations of soldiers being able to jog over long distances while carrying a loaded rucksack?
 
It seems to ME (and you did ask) that y'all need to define the terms before you can get anywhere, and that doesn't mean you each get to define them for the others.
This isn't really a debate about terminology, not at its heart. But I'll do some defining to satisfy you. Racial discrimination means treating people differently because of their race. That is always illegal for the government to do under the equal protection clause of the constitution, it is illegal for educational institutions receiving federal money to do under Title VI of the Civil Rights act, and it is frequently illegal for even private organizations to do, especially in regards to employment. In my personal opinion, it is also immoral.

DEI programs frequently engage in racial discrimination, by design and intent, not merely by accident. Justifications and euphemisms for this racial discrimination have been offered, but renaming it doesn't change what it is. That's the real heart of the debate, not terminology. Is racial discrimination acceptable or not? arthwollipot thinks it sometimes is, I do not. That's the real disagreement, and all his hemming and hawing about what to call it is just an attempt to duck that basic issue, to try to defend racial discrimination by calling it something else and pretending that the disagreement is about something else. It's not. It's really that basic. Is racial discrimination justified or not?
 
What justification do you have in framing these issues as "discrimination" and not "affirmative action"? Oh wait, do you believe that affirmative action is discrimination? You probably do, don't you? Do you even understand the reasoning behind affirmative action?
No, you're just wrong, arth.

Affirmative Action takes the position that employers cannot discriminate against applicants on the basis of their skin color, and when there is a notable variance from the population distribution, employers need to be able to demonstrate that the applicants they hired are clearly the best for the role, or that the pool of applicants was not representative. Employers need to be able to demonstrate that they aren't posting or advertising jobs in a way that creates barriers to qualified applicants. That's a removal of discrimination.

What you've been shown are cases where it was made explicitly clear that ONLY people who fit a certain superficial description would even be considered for a job - and that is actual and intentional discrimination.

Which of these statements do you find acceptable, and for what reasons?
  • Only white males will be considered for this job
  • Only females of color will be considered for this job
  • Only white students can come to the pizza party
  • Only indigenous students can come to the pizza party
 
This isn't really a debate about terminology, not at its heart. But I'll do some defining to satisfy you. Racial discrimination means treating people differently because of their race. That is always illegal for the government to do under the equal protection clause of the constitution, it is illegal for educational institutions receiving federal money to do under Title VI of the Civil Rights act, and it is frequently illegal for even private organizations to do, especially in regards to employment. In my personal opinion, it is also immoral.

DEI programs frequently engage in racial discrimination, by design and intent, not merely by accident. Justifications and euphemisms for this racial discrimination have been offered, but renaming it doesn't change what it is. That's the real heart of the debate, not terminology. Is racial discrimination acceptable or not? arthwollipot thinks it sometimes is, I do not. That's the real disagreement, and all his hemming and hawing about what to call it is just an attempt to duck that basic issue, to try to defend racial discrimination by calling it something else and pretending that the disagreement is about something else. It's not. It's really that basic. Is racial discrimination justified or not?
In your opinion should Black History Month be a thing?
 
I was actually referring to someone else, who a short while ago did not imply but stated outright that a typo on my part was a slip that showed I really believed the opposite of what I was professing. Not in this thread.
It strains credulity that you would just accidentally mix up male versus female nomenclature in the way that you did. And sure, perhaps I was poking a bit, but what you wrote was not just a typo, it wasn't just fingers-out-of-order on a keyboard, you literally put the wrong sex in there for what you were asserting.
 
Should black people with sickle cell trait be treated the same as all the other recruits, with no regard for skin colour?
Yes, there should be no regard for skin color. Black people with sickle cell trait should be treated just like white people with sickle cell trait.

It appears that ALL recruits were not properly monitored for health problems during training. This problem should be rectified. Sickle cell trait is not the only health condition which may make a person susceptible to health problems during exercise. Nor is it a condition exclusive to blacks, even though it's more common among them. And NO trainee should experience dehydration during training, regardless of their health condition. Heavy exercise in a dehydrated condition can lead to rhabdomyolysis (which can be life threatening and permanently crippling) even among people with no health problems. It's a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ stupid idea to train like that. The problem may disproportionately affect blacks, but the solution (sensible and safe training) should be applied to everyone, not just black trainees.
 
I don't have any objections to it. It doesn't inherently discriminate against anyone. Students of any ethnicity can equally participate in it, or at least they should be able to.
Congratulations! You're not opposed to all DEI then. Because yes, that's what some people are talking about when they talk about DEI. But you wouldn't know that because of all those pesky undefined terms and lack of specific examples. Generalities lead nowhere.
 
Definitions were asked for, so here are mine:

diversity

/ daɪˈvɜːsɪtɪ /

noun
  1. the state or quality of being different or varied
  2. a point of difference
  3. logic the relation that holds between two entities when and only when they are not identical; the property of being numerically distinct

equity

/ ˈɛkwɪtɪ /

noun
  1. the quality of being impartial or reasonable; fairness
  2. an impartial or fair act, decision, etc
  3. law a system of jurisprudence founded on principles of natural justice and fair conduct. It supplements the common law and mitigates its inflexibility, as by providing a remedy where none exists at law
  4. law an equitable right or claim
    equity of redemption
  5. the interest of ordinary shareholders in a company
  6. the market value of a debtor's property in excess of all debts to which it is liable

inclusion

/ ɪnˈkluːʒən /

noun
  1. the act of including or the state of being included
  2. something included
  3. geology a solid fragment, liquid globule, or pocket of gas enclosed in a mineral or rock
  4. maths
    the relation between two sets that obtains when all the members of the first are members of the second X⊆Y
    the relation that obtains between two sets when the first includes the second but not vice versa X⊂Y​
  5. engineering a foreign particle in a metal, such as a particle of metal oxide

If anyone is using a definition different from these, I do not accept that we are talking about anything like the same thing.
 
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Definitions were asked for, so here are mine:






Already addressed, repeatedly.
 

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