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Split Thread Diversity Equity and Inclusion and merit in employment etc

Hercules56 said:
Do you feel that job training, exam prep, student loans, community outreach that specifically targets black Americans, is racist and should be illegal?
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If it's privately funded, more power to them. If it's federally funded in any way, it should be illegal. There may be some very specific exceptions to this, in very particular contexts.

For example, there were efforts in my state to have mobile vaccination systems that would travel to areas where vaccination levels were very low. These were predominantly in areas with high hispanic or native american populations, and the disparity in vaccination rates for those groups were something that we were trying to specifically address. On the other hand, if a vacc-van showed up near the Navajo Nation and some local white folks showed up to get jabbed, they were not turned away. The objective of the program was to increase vaccinations among a population with a low rate... but not exclusively so. Because it turns out that you can have a program that addresses the cause of a disparity (in this case access to vaccinations being a barrier when long travel was required) that disproportionately impacts one demographic (in this case native americans) without having to make it exclusively about the demographic characteristic itself (which would be discrimination).
 
Hercules56 said:
Why are they poor? Because a legacy of centuries of discrimination against their race, ethnicity, nationality?
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Why are some white people poor?

Seriously, this ends up reading like you think white people who are poor should just work harder or somehow deserve it because of their own bad choices... but black people simply aren't capable of overcoming the barriers of two generations ago.
 
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Hercules56 said:
Society doesnt owe a massive debt to most white people living in poverty.
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Society doesn't owe anything to anyone. Individuals owe debts to other individuals. An individual who had nothing to do with slavery doesn't owe anything to someone who never experienced slavery on account of slavery. Individuals with means should also help other individuals who are in need, but the basis for that is the means and the need, NOT their respective races. To put everything in racial terms is racism. Explicitly so. "I will help you but only because you're black" isn't actually any better than "I won't help you because you're black". It's just changing sides in a conflict that shouldn't even exist.
 
Hercules56 said:
Going to HBCs and majority black neighborhoods and doing outreach for job positions. You oppose this?
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Nobody opposes this.
Hercules56 said:
How about offering scholarships, free SAT prep., free remedial courses, just to people in zip codes with high concentrations of black people?
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Are they offering these programs to ANYONE in those zip codes, or is it limited to people with enough melanin content to qualify?
 
Emily's Cat said:
Why are some white people poor?

Seriously, this ends up reading like you think white people who are poor should just work harder or somehow deserve it because of their own bad choices... but black people simply aren't capable of overcoming the barriers of two generations ago.
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Most white people in the USA do not have a centuries long legacy of discrimination and persecution.
 
Hercules56 said:
Most white people in the USA do not have a centuries long legacy of discrimination and persecution.
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So the hell what? If a child is born to poor parents, does the reason why they are poor really matter to that child? Does any child deserve to grow up poor? Does any child deserve it more than another child? If you're lifting a black child out of poverty because he's black, but leaving a white child in poverty because he's white, you're just creating a new legacy of discrimination. How about we stop discriminating against people on the basis of race? How about we make doing that unacceptable?
 
Hercules56 said:
Sex discrimination and its legacy is very different than what black people in the USA suffered. The solution, is different. But yes it too should be addressed.
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I want to try to be clear here, because I get that it's easy to misunderstand and make bad assumptions.

Yes, the US has a history of slavery and discrimination. But this gets treated as if it's something unique to the US, as if it didn't have any effects anywhere else. It's very frustrating. There's no scrutiny toward the Netherlands, Spain, France, or England - all of which were the dominant traders in slaves by Europeans, and all of which made a LOT of money off of it. And that's only addressing the caucasians involved, that's completely overlooking the Arabic and African nations that profited off of slavery for centuries before Europeans even started taking part.

And it handwaves away the fact that the US had strong factions opposing slavery from before we were even a country, with a pretty high number of Barkers and Quakers speaking out against it from the start while they were being actively persecuted and silenced for opposing it in European nations. It ignores that parts of Central and South America continued to have active slavery after it was abolished in the US. There are many parts of the world where segregation and legal discrimination continued concurrently with what happened in the US.

Slavery is bad, racial discrimination is bad. Yes, absolutely. But why is it that America ends up being the sole focus on this topic? Why is this somehow framed as something that doesn't happen elsewhere, sometimes much more blatantly and for longer?
 
jt512 said:
I like the way you've stopped even pretending to tell the truth.
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Ziggurat said:
You keep falsely denying that DEI in practice actually is racial discrimination.
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It's so sad how both of you have uncritically accepted the anti-DEI lie.

Are you not seeing how the anti-DEI push is actually playing out in the real world? Is your information bubble so impenetrable?

www.theverge.com

The war on DEI is a smoke screen

MAGA’s attacks on “wokeness” and diversity, equity, and inclusion are a thinly veiled attack on the Civil Rights Movement itself.
www.theverge.com www.theverge.com

The public’s negative polarization against DEI in recent years is no accident; it’s the product of a yearslong campaign led by a coalition of right-wing think tanks, which in turn were funded by deep-pocketed conservative donors. It began with academia: organizations like the Manhattan Institute and the Claremont Institute accused universities and grade schools of pushing “woke” ideology onto children in the form of “critical race theory” and, more recently, DEI. While “critical race theory” failed to take off — perhaps because of its academic connotations — DEI conjured images of overbearing HR departments, Raytheon Pride swag, and elite prep schools touting their commitments to diversity and inclusion, making it an ideal target for populist ire. Worse still, they say, the problem extended far beyond bland, consultant-crafted DEI statements, infecting every level of the federal bureaucracy.
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Far from harmless, the crusade against DEI has been a way of laundering racist policies into the mainstream. The anti-woke right’s public focus on hollow cultural signifiers obscures their actual goal: undoing the gains made by the Civil Rights Movement. In this worldview, “DEI” goes beyond woke indoctrination, serving as a mechanism to elevate biologically inferior people to positions of power at the expense of the true elites. More than a racist project, it’s a racialist project — one whose leaders believe that traits like intelligence are racially determined. [Conservative author Richard] Hanania is one of the few activists willing to admit this publicly, but he’s far from the only one that believes it.
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arthwollipot said:
It's so sad how both of you have uncritically accepted the anti-DEI lie.

Are you not seeing how the anti-DEI push is actually playing out in the real world? Is your information bubble so impenetrable?

www.theverge.com

The war on DEI is a smoke screen

MAGA’s attacks on “wokeness” and diversity, equity, and inclusion are a thinly veiled attack on the Civil Rights Movement itself.
www.theverge.com www.theverge.com
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That article is pure ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.
 
arthwollipot said:
It's so sad how both of you have uncritically accepted the anti-DEI lie.
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It's so sad to see you continue to deny the truth. To deny that racial discrimination in the name of DEI is rampant. For example, when public universities hold blacks-only events, that's racial discrimination, and it's illegal. But that's what DEI is in practice. You can keep pretending that stuff like this didn't happen, but it did. Quite often.
arthwollipot said:
Is your information bubble so impenetrable?
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Oh, the irony.
 
"Is so!"
"Is not!"

How many rounds before y'all realize you disagree on a premise and nobody can be convinced to change their mind simply by being told "no, that's wrong!" I'm betting fifty more pages at least.
 
TragicMonkey said:
"Is so!"
"Is not!"

How many rounds before y'all realize you disagree on a premise and nobody can be convinced to change their mind simply by being told "no, that's wrong!" I'm betting fifty more pages at least.
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Unlike anthing arth has ever done, I have repeatedly posted links to executive orders that mandated racial preferences in hiring and grant funding, a link to an article in which a NASA spokesperson slipped and revealed how NASA was holding minority grant seekers to a lower standard, and peer review research that exposed the extent of the intrusion of DEI ideology in science funding. It is not a question of disagreeing on a premise. It is one side posting real evidence about what has been going on and the other willfully ignoring it.
 
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