Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

TomB said:
I don't think the pro-trans movement "came from nowhere in about five minutes."

In the early 90s, drag shows became fairly popular among young heterosexual women where I lived at the time. (Peoria, Illinois.) I think it was kind of an offshoot of gay culture becoming cool. (A few years earlier ('86), when I was in college, the "best" dance club was the local gay bar, which started having "straight night" every Wednesday or Thursday.)

Fast forward a few years to 1995, and To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar came out and was a mainstream success. Ru Paul and Drag Race followed shortly after.

My point here is that trans or trans adjacent people became more visible in a positive light as acceptance of gay culture progressed. This likely encouraged people who had previously stayed mostly out of the spotlight to be more visible and vocal and, importantly, realize that they don't have to live in the shadows. (This is not a bad thing.)

So why the "sudden" appearance of more trans people?
Again, I think it is a delayed parallel to what I saw with the acceptance of homosexuality. In the late 80s, it seemed to me that there were a lot of high school girls who came out as lesbian. For most of them, I think it was a phase of social and/or sexual experimentation. It had become more acceptable to explore. (Oddly, it was (is?) not as acceptable for boys to experiment. Similarly, I suspect there are some young people who are experimenting. Not all, of course, but it's hard to tell one from the other.

So, no, I don't think there is some kind of conspiracy by pharmaceutical companies.
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The out-of-nowhere aspect comes in when "drag" got transformed into "transgender" and was suddenly paired with "any male in a dress gets to shower with females if they feel like it" part of the activism.

Drag becoming popular is entirely different - everyone understood that this was males dressing up as females for entertainment purposes (we'll just set aside my personal feelings about womanface shows). Nobody thought that these were males-who-think-they're-females-on-the-inside who were dressing up to perform as their 'true selves'.
 
Rolfe said:
The one I'm really talking about is 9. The captured organisations. The army of people who are mostly not themselves trans, but who are insisting on pronouns in email signatures and attacking women as transphobes if they dare to object to men in their toilets or changing rooms and writing actual sex out of policies and legislation in favour of gender identity.

The pervasive attitude that, at its peak, saw a judge rule the belief that sex is binary and immutable and sometimes important as "unworthy of respect in a democratic society". That has removed the words "mother" and "woman" from the vocabulary of maternity hospitals, to be replaced with "birthing parent" and "pregnant person". Oh, and "chestfeeding". That has banned lesbians from having female-only social events and dating apps.

The "progressive Pride" lanyards and flags everywhere. Company logos dressed up in these colours for the whole of June (at least). A nurse with 30 years unblemished service being faced with dismissal for referring to an obviously male junior doctor as "he". Writers and artists losing their jobs, their publishers and their agents because they liked a tweet by J K Rowling. People getting visits from the police about "hate crime" because they put up a poster reading "woman: adult human female" or "I ❤️ J K Rowling". Police doing the work of vexatious litigants who allege transphobia everywhere.

People like J K Rowling being sent the most vile insults and graphic death threats (usually involving rape with a baseball bat wrapped in barbed wire) for not slavishly bowing to the ideology. Drag queen story time.

We've seen it in this thread, especially in its early iterations. People being called vile names with impunity on the principle that it's fine to call someone a bigot if they're on a particular side of the argument, and these people having their own speech policed.

None of that ever happened with the gay rights movement, and certainly not to this extent with the civil rights movement. Attitudes changed slowly, legislation was debated and introduced slowly, and genuine bigotry gradually decreased and became less and less acceptable. There is still institutional racism and homophobia in the police, but they will fight to the death for a male police officer's right to carry out an intimate search on a female prisoner if he says he's trans (or a male prisoner's right to be searched by a female police officer if he says he's trans). I could go on but I'd be typing all day.

This has come out of nowhere in the last ten years and I'm not insisting on the "Big Pharma" explanation, but it's completely bizarre.
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My hypothesis is that this can be attributed almost entirely to the lefts long march through the institutions. There's a couple generations, that have been indoctrinated in the ideology of social progress from grade school onwards, who are now in positions to do something about it.

I don't intend to disparage progressive values. I do, however, note that the indoctrination has been somewhat lacking in prophylaxis against bad ideas parasitizing good principles. No great conspiracy, just the natural result of a western education over the past forty years or so. It seems "out of nowhere" because it finally hit an inflection point where the outcomes became really noticeable.

My other hypothesis is that the TRAs brought on this inflection point by rushing things a bit. They really thought they were set up to put men in women's sports by fiat self-ID, and all those other things. If they'd waited one more generation, they might have won it all.
 
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smartcooky said:
I will tell you what IS happening all of a sudden...

1. People who are clearly biologically male claiming they are women merely on their own say so, and
2. Demanding absolute right of access to women's safe spaces such as toilets, restrooms, changing rooms, domestic violence shelters and rape crisis centres and
3. Demanding inclusion in women's sports, and
4. Demanding to be housed in women's prisons, then
5. Transgender activists screaming blue murder when they don't get their way, and
6. Calling anyone who disagrees with them "transphobes", and
7. Organising Social Media outrage mobs to publicly attack those who disagree, and
8. Organising phone and letter writing campaigns to get anyone who disagrees with them fired or sanctioned by their employer.

But the worst aspect of this is the number of organizations, including political parties and actual governments, that have been captured by this froot loop ideology. I consider myself to be Liberal, but I HATE the way the left wing liberal progressives have hijacked my party and turned it into a party of whackjobs in full denial of objective scientific reality - i.e. the claim that an individual with with a prick, balls, a beard, XY chromosomes (with NO DSD) who has a reproductibve system that is arranged to produce small gametes can be anything other than a biological male.

Now, none of this crap was happening in the 1990s! None of it!
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You forgot
9. Showing up with threatening signs and shirts calling for the decapitation or punching of females who disagree with them and
10. Beating up pensioners and physically attacking females who organize to discuss the conflict in rights
 
theprestige said:
My hypothesis is that this can be attributed almost entirely to the lefts long march through the institutions. There's a couple generations, that have been indoctrinated in the ideology of social progress from grade school onwards, who are now in positions to do something about it.

I don't intend to disparage progressive values. I do, however, note that the indoctrination has been somewhat lacking in prophylaxis against bad ideas parasitizing good principles. No great conspiracy, just the natural result of a western education over the past forty years or so. It seems "out of nowhere" because it finally hit an inflection point where the outcomes became really noticeable.

My other hypothesis is that the TRAs brought on this inflection point by rushing things a bit. They really thought they were set up to put men in women's sports by fiat self-ID, and all those other things. If they'd waited one more generation, they might have won it all.
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Good observation. When I was in college in the early 90s, there were a smallish collection of super progressive students making noise here and there. But they weren't common - some of that is undoubtedly because my university was heavily skewed toward Agriculture and STEM. It started as an Aggie school, and invested in having really robust Engineering, Math, Physics, Chemistry programs. Computer Science was meh, and Biology wasn't really a strength. Surprisingly good fine arts program for a state school though.

But yeah - those noisy students of the late eighties and early nineties went into academia. Then they started teaching their noise to their students... who also went into academia. Then we end up with a bunch of hyper-focused liberal arts degrees centered around various ideologically driven social justice topics... and the batch of students that they turned out was now too large for academia to absorb them all... and they were cut loose into the real world and politics.
 
theprestige said:
My hypothesis is that this can be attributed almost entirely to the lefts long march through the institutions. There's a couple generations, that have been indoctrinated in the ideology of social progress from grade school onwards, who are now in positions to do something about it.

I don't intend to disparage progressive values. I do, however, note that the indoctrination has been somewhat lacking in prophylaxis against bad ideas parasitizing good principles. No great conspiracy, just the natural result of a western education over the past forty years or so. It seems "out of nowhere" because it finally hit an inflection point where the outcomes became really noticeable.

My other hypothesis is that the TRAs brought on this inflection point by rushing things a bit. They really thought they were set up to put men in women's sports by fiat self-ID, and all those other things. If they'd waited one more generation, they might have won it all.
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It's the sheer zeal, vehemence and viciousness exhibited by many of those promoting the trans agenda, while at the same time apparently having no particular dog in the fight, that gets me. I mean, the things that have happened to people as a result of the persecution, like a disabled woman arrested and locked up on suspicion of planting a "woman: adult human being" sticker (she had been seen looking at it), and a children's writer who is now driving a lorry for a living after being cancelled for wrongthink. The founder of a dance company forced out of her own company for similar wrongthink.

These people are displaying a zealotry seldom seen outside dubious religious cults, and the western world seems to be full of them. What is driving them? There are people on this forum I'd like to ask that question of, but all I'd get is a mouthful of abuse about a marginalised vulnerable minority who just want to live in peace, and my hateful bigotry.

I'm not aware of this sort of mentality in anyone campaigning for gay rights or civil rights for black Americans, for example.
 
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arthwollipot said:
You know my opinion on this subject. I'm not going to go into it here.

I'm just going to say that you can't be trans-hostile and inclusive.
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Yes, we know your opinion. Your opinion is that you should be allowed to denigrate anyone who supports the reality of biological sex and related spaces and services with impunity, while simultaneously insisting that anyone who challenges your views be removed from your sight and dumped into a thread you refuse to participate in. You've created a self-soothing bubble where you never have to be challenged, and anyone who does challenge you is forcibly removed from your sight.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I'll be happy to see Upton run through the wringer on this entire crap show...

That said, depending on how they took notes, there may not be a date stamp. If it were a text, it would be there. I think the same is true if it were a voice recorded note. On the other hand, the simple little app I use for my to-do, grocery, reading, and random thoughts lists doesn't have any dates associated with them, unless I manually type it in.

That said... there might very well be associated dates under the hood in the app, even if Upton can't see them. That could be very enlightening. At this point after hearing some of the things Upton has said in testimony, I wouldn't be surprised to find they added trumped-up patient concerns AFTER complaining about being accurately identified as a male.
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He definitely dreamed up the misconduct allegations after realising that the misgendering part wasn't enough to get the nurse sacked. Proving it is the issue.
 
theprestige said:
My other hypothesis is that the TRAs brought on this inflection point by rushing things a bit. They really thought they were set up to put men in women's sports by fiat self-ID, and all those other things. If they'd waited one more generation, they might have won it all.
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I don't think there was ever any chance of that. The vast majority of the population were never going to buy men in women's sports, men in women's prisons and so on. They got as far as they did by sneaking changes in under the radar (the Denton playbook), but once it started to become general knowledge it was only a matter of time. We're really just at the end of the beginning, but it's going to be a long decline for the genderwoo from now on.
 
Came across a fascinating substack post earlier today (in my AskWho podcast feed) from a self-identified AGP:

There are some autogynephiles among us who are not content with living out our lives in the T4T ghetto. Who long to know the touch of a real, actual woman, as in the kind that that word referred to before 2015, with wide hips and proper boobs and a vagina and everything, and whose shared interest in our autistic, male-dominated hobbies feels special and unique and not common and stereotypical, but who know we will never have such, because we’re disgusted by the idea of being attractive in a masculine manner, and incapable of being attractive in a feminine manner. Who wish we could at least lament our circumstances without being told at best that we’re sick with the disease of internalized transmisogyny and need to be shown the healing light of T4T, and at worst that we’re vile misogynist incels, somehow, despite supposedly being women. Who, quite bluntly, don’t like being lied to. What, pray tell, are we supposed to do in your glorious trans utopia? Going around demanding that random trans-affirming cis lesbians ◊◊◊◊ us or be proven hypocrites would be neither ethical nor productive.​

It quite suddenly gets a bit dark at the end, but I'm going to leave that part out because the non-emotional bits of the piece really are worth considering apart from the emotional investment of the author.
 
Autogynaephilia has always been a thing, obviously, and societies have dealt with it in different ways. I had thought it was innate and that the sufferer could do little other than handle it as best he could. But I am now wondering if there is some triggering factor that can precipitate the paraphilia, maybe in adolescents.
 
smartcooky said:
I will tell you what IS happening all of a sudden...

1. People who are clearly biologically male claiming they are women merely on their own say so, and
2. Demanding absolute right of access to women's safe spaces such as toilets, restrooms, changing rooms, domestic violence shelters and rape crisis centres and
3. Demanding inclusion in women's sports, and
4. Demanding to be housed in women's prisons, then
5. Transgender activists screaming blue murder when they don't get their way, and
6. Calling anyone who disagrees with them "transphobes", and
7. Organising Social Media outrage mobs to publicly attack those who disagree, and
8. Organising phone and letter writing campaigns to get anyone who disagrees with them fired or sanctioned by their employer.

But the worst aspect of this is the number of organizations, including political parties and actual governments, that have been captured by this froot loop ideology. I consider myself to be Liberal, but I HATE the way the left wing liberal progressives have hijacked my party and turned it into a party of whackjobs in full denial of objective scientific reality - i.e. the claim that an individual with with a prick, balls, a beard, XY chromosomes (with NO DSD) who has a reproductibve system that is arranged to produce small gametes can be anything other than a biological male.

Now, none of this crap was happening in the 1990s! None of it!
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Most of the arguments were already going on well before the 1990s. The difference is that almost nobody outside of radical feminists (who were split on the issue even then) and transwomen knew or cared that it was happening, and no politician had any interest in the topic.
 
Rolfe said:
Autogynaephilia has always been a thing, obviously, and societies have dealt with it in different ways. I had thought it was innate and that the sufferer could do little other than handle it as best he could. But I am now wondering if there is some triggering factor that can precipitate the paraphilia, maybe in adolescents.
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I've assumed that it functions the same as other paraphilias. In most cases, something happens prior to puberty that crosses some wires that drive arousal once adolescence hits. Might not be able to identify a singular trigger event, but for most paraphilias, the sexual arousal is already present when puberty starts. Additionally, paraphilias are rather like addiction or obsession - the more it's fed, the stronger the association becomes. In the worst cases, the individual cannot achieve sexual fulfillment without the object of their paraphilia being involved.
 
Not feeding it seems to be very important. Thus public disgust and ridicule served a therapeutic purpose.
 
Brainster said:
Most of the arguments were already going on well before the 1990s. The difference is that almost nobody outside of radical feminists (who were split on the issue even then) and transwomen knew or cared that it was happening, and no politician had any interest in the topic.
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I would argue that demands to allow males Self IDing and cosplaying as women, access to rape crisis centres, women's safe spaces etc is a very recent thing, and was definitely NOT going in the 1990s.
 
smartcooky said:
I would argue that demands to allow males Self IDing and cosplaying as women, access to rape crisis centres, women's safe spaces etc is a very recent thing, and was definitely NOT going in the 1990s.
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There is much more of a sense of entitlement among transwomen these days and so you are probably right about them being presented as demands these days where they might have been on wish lists back in the 1990s. But the same arguments were raging in a tiny corner of academia that I happened to be paying attention to at the time. I read a lot of feminist writers back then (MacKinnon, Dworkin, Pipher, etc,) and although the transgender issue wasn't what I was interested in, it kept coming up again and again. Somehow I came across Robert Jensen (probably through a footnote) and his arguments against transwomen as women were tied up in the whole patriarchy thing as seen through his radical left perspective. This is an updated version (2016) but Jensen was saying these things in the early 1990s:

Transgenderism is a liberal, individualist, medicalized response to the problem of patriarchy’s rigid, repressive, and reactionary gender norms. Radical feminism is a radical, structural, politicized response. On the surface, transgenderism may seem to be a more revolutionary approach, but radical feminism offers a deeper critique of the domination/subordination dynamic at the heart of patriarchy and a more promising path to liberation.
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That gives you a flavor of where the debate was back then. Largely something that was being debated by feminist scholars and radical leftists.
 
Brainster said:
There is much more of a sense of entitlement among transwomen these days and so you are probably right about them being presented as demands these days where they might have been on wish lists back in the 1990s.
But the same arguments were raging in a tiny corner of academia that I happened to be paying attention to at the time. I read a lot of feminist writers back then (MacKinnon, Dworkin, Pipher, etc,) and although the transgender issue wasn't what I was interested in, it kept coming up again and again. Somehow I came across Robert Jensen (probably through a footnote) and his arguments against transwomen as women were tied up in the whole patriarchy thing as seen through his radical left perspective. This is an updated version (2016) but Jensen was saying these things in the early 1990s:


That gives you a flavor of where the debate was back then. Largely something that was being debated by feminist scholars and radical leftists.
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Well they are now full-on mainstream progressive left dogma. Most of us don't pay a lot of attention to the tiny corners of radical academia, so that is probably why this, as Rolfe says, appears to have happened all of a sudden.

Thankfully, the tide is turning against the madness. Much as I despise The Fat Orange Turd, the Republicans and everything they stand for, IMO this is the one thing they are on the right side of. Thats the conservative part of my "Liberal-Conservative" world view coming out. If the centre left ever want to get into power again, they had better start distancing themselves from this crap... and soon. The need to start dealing with the radical progressive rabble-rousers in their midst.
 
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