Is Jesus's "this generation will certainly not pass" valid grounds for scepticism?

[theprestige]

Whether it's unusually problematic or not, it is a challenge for Christians to explain.

Yeah, I grew up Christian. It's no challenge at all, once you've been exposed to the typical epistemology and apologetics, and had some practice with them.

 

[Poem]

Yeah, but cutting to the meta-chase: faith and evidence are somewhat at odds with each other. It's why a skeptic finds it hard to be a believer, and why the believer finds skeptics to be soulless. They ain't gonna find much common ground unless they both get a little less anal. Carl Sagan was a great example, IMO. Clearly an Atheist, but called himself an agnostic out of respect.

Okay - but I'm not sure this is going anywhere. I guess the thread is directed as a challenge towards Christians; maybe there aren't many here on International Skeptics....

 

[Thermal]

Okay - but I'm not sure this is going anywhere. I guess the thread is directed as a challenge towards Christians; maybe there aren't many here on International Skeptics....

Well, yeah. Pretty sure we have a bunch of "message Christians" running around, but not a lot of militant evangelicals harping on every word of scripture.

 

[Darat]

I'm not sure.

Well then it's hard to say why he may be confused or unsettled by those verses. If he was a RC I would suggest he speaks to his priest who will be able to confirm the RCC view of those passages, if he is a Mormon I think it would be his bishop, for an Anglican their vicar or rector. For the many and I mean many protestant styled Christian religious it would whoever they have as religious advisors. As I said they all have explanations for why your interpretation of those verses is incorrect.

 

[Darat]

I, and others who might point to verse 24, are potential believers are we not?

You asked about faith not belief "Surely, this remains a serious obstacle to faith?" (bolding by me), the two words can be used interchangeably in some circumstances but not when talking about a Christian religion.

 

[Darat]

I'm not clear on why you are holding this one up as unusually problematic. We
could start with the census/taxation/whatever that prompted Joseph and Mary to go to Bethlehem (that history indicates didn't happen) or guiding stars appearing over towns (that astronomically didn't happen either) to getting knocked up by ghosts and all the rest as difficult problems. This is just another, which I think the faithful attribute to "one of those things" that a God might say that people misinterpret. He called himself the Son of Man, while it is said kinda point blank he wasn't, kinda literally.

I think you can start earlier in the commonly accepted start of current Christian bibles: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".

 

[Darat]

Whether it's unusually problematic or not,
it is a challenge for Christians to explain.

ETA: Since it is Jesus's own words and prophecy at that - it is particularly embarrassing as Lewis pointed out.

Not for one that has listened to their spiritual leaders.

Are you aware that in the end Lewis settled on the canard "god works in mysterious ways and man can never know the mind of god"? Now that should be an embarrassment to anyone but sadly it is what all Christian theology always ends up concluding - although they will use a lot of words to say that.


ETA: Added a "for"

 

[acbytesla]

Yeah, I grew up Christian. It's no challenge at all, once you've been exposed to the typical epistemology and apologetics, and had some practice with them.

I know. It's a typical rationalization. Just as the explanation why Jesus and the crucifixion was necessary for God to forgive. It doesn't make sense and is basically intellectually dishonest.

 

[Thermal]

I think you can start earlier in the commonly accepted start of current Christian bibles: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".

I think I mentioned my grandfather was a progressive protestant minister. He had a pretty cool take on all that. He said the people back then were a bunch of uneducated goat herders, and you couldn't really get into evolution and all that with them, so you rocked the story in parables that they could wrap their heads around. The heavans and the earth were matter and space, and "let there be light" was energy, that kind of thing.

My favorite was "the spirit of God moved upon the surface of the waters". That's surfing. "But they didn't surf back then?" "Does that mean he can't speak to everyone in their way, and have his words reach across the eons? The sprit of god is joy. How do you feel when you surf?"

 

[Thermal]

I know. It's a typical rationalization. Just as the explanation why Jesus and the crucifixion was necessary for God to forgive. It doesn't make sense and is basically intellectually dishonest.

That was one of my early questions. "God had to sacrifice himself to himself? Couldn't he just have given himself a pass on that action?"

 

[theprestige]

That was one of my early questions. "God had to sacrifice himself to himself? Couldn't he just have given himself a pass on that action?"

I always hypothesized that the self-sacrifice was the heavenly mechanism by which the pass was obtained.

Like how are we supposed to understand the heavenly bureaucracy of a being that exists beyond time and space, and renders nonsensical the idea of causality? Whatever those godly phenomena that enter our light cone look like to us, they're probably not going to make much sense to us, right?

But to be clear - this is all just a fun exercise in casual apologetics for me. I'm not trying to seriously explain the Christian god, or address Poem's concerns, or anything like that.

I'm pretty sure Lewis addresses Poem's concerns. I haven't checked, though, so Poem has a nonzero chance of reading the rest of the piece, and disproving my hypothesis. Let's see if that happens.

 

[acbytesla]

That was one of my early questions. "God had to sacrifice himself to himself? Couldn't he just have given himself a pass on that action?"

Me too. I could never understand the explanations for this.

Q: God is all powerful?
A: right.
Q: Then why can't God forgive man for man's transgressions?
A: Hmmm, you see God hates sin.
Q: So?
A: The punishment for sin is death.
Q: Doesn't God decide what the punishment is?
A: Yes.
Q: Then why can't he make the punishment something else?

I've never heard even close to a satisfactory answer why God had to rape and impregnate a Jewish girl. Take human form, live on the earth for 30 years just so the Romans could nail him to cross. In the end, it's an insanely convoluted solution that even the village moron could address with, "just forgive and leave it at that."

But I think the verse in Matthew was clearly addressing the Jewish problem at hand which was the Roman occupation. Just as Moses was their savior from Egyptian bandage, Jesus was the savior from Rome.

 

[Poem]

I'm pretty sure Lewis addresses Poem's concerns. I haven't checked, though, so Poem has a nonzero chance of reading the rest of the piece, and disproving my hypothesis. Let's see if that happens.

I haven't checked either - but since looking at this issue I've never seen any reference to where he might have resolved things.

The only point he makes (which I thought you were referencing) was his quoting of Jesus saying only the Father knows the hour,

 

[Poem]

Me too. I could never understand the explanations for this.

Q: God is all powerful?
A: right.
Q: Then why can't God forgive man for man's transgressions?
A: Hmmm, you see God hates sin.
Q: So?
A: The punishment for sin is death.
Q: Doesn't God decide what the punishment is?
A: Yes.
Q: Then why can't he make the punishment something else?

I've never heard even close to a satisfactory answer why God had to rape and impregnate a Jewish girl. Take human form, live on the earth for 30 years just so the Romans could nail him to cross. In the end, it's an insanely convoluted solution that even the village moron could address with, "just forgive and leave it at that."

We humans don't just forgive murderers do we?

 

[Poem]

Not for one that has listened to their spiritual leaders.

I guess some Christians do think independently.

Are you aware that in the end Lewis settled on the canard "god works in mysterious ways and man can never know the mind of god"?

I didn't know that.

Now that should be an embarrassment to anyone but sadly it is what all Christian theology always ends up concluding - although they will use a lot of words to say that.
ETA: Added a "for"

I accept your point.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove off-topic question likely to lead to derails

 

[Poem]

You asked about faith not belief "Surely, this remains a serious obstacle to faith?" (bolding by me), the two words can be used interchangeably in some circumstances but not when talking about a Christian religion.

You mean faith is a deeper level of belief?

 

[theprestige]

I haven't checked either - but since looking at this issue I've never seen any reference to where he might have resolved things.

I'm telling you, it's gonna be in the very next paragraph of the piece you quoted in the OP.

The only point he makes (which I thought you were referencing) was his quoting of Jesus saying only the Father knows the hour,

I really wish you would read and internalize the things I write, before you reply to them.

 

[theprestige]

You mean faith is a deeper level of belief?

No. Faith is a subset of belief. It's literally defined in the Bible as belief without evidence.

 

[acbytesla]

I always hypothesized that the self-sacrifice was the heavenly mechanism by which the pass was obtained.

That makes no sense to me. Who or what is extending this pass? Are you saying there is a higher power than God? And what self sacrifice? Jesus didn't die. He had a bad weekend at wor

Like how are we supposed to understand the heavenly bureaucracy of a being that exists beyond time and space, and renders nonsensical the idea of causality? Whatever those godly phenomena that enter our light cone look like to us, they're probably not going to make much sense to us, right?

This also always seems too convenient an answer. "Yeah we know it doesn't make sense. But this is all too complicated for you humans." It reminds me very much how Enron successfully carried out its creative accounting fraud for a decade. They would argue that we were incapable of understanding what is obvious. Don't believe your eyes and minds, just trust our story. Meanwhile, they are robbing you blind.

I may not understand why there is something instead of nothing or fully understand the physical laws of the universe. But I see little reason that I can't understand the process of forgiveness. The very idea that a barbaric blood sacrifice is required screams that this couldn't be act of an all powerful being, but clearly another act of primitive human barbarism.

And to me the very hole in the coffin of this ridiculous story is that the sacrifice isn't enough for forgiveness. No it requires our credulity. Otherwise God will torture us forever. Isn't it interesting that God employs a carrot and a stick approach?

But in a way, I can thank the Bible for giving me a way out of the cult of Christianity. I attended Bible School regularly from as young as I could remember until my early twenties. I went to Bible camp every summer. I was a member of Young Life. So I understand the theology and usual apologetics.

I could even go along and say I believe just for my ticket to paradise. But the problem for me is that I didn't and couldn't. Nothing about it actually passes basic rationality or scientific scrutiny. And since the Bible is clear that God knows my thoughts anyway, what's the use of lying about it? I was damned either way.

 

[acbytesla]

We humans don't just forgive murderers do we?

We do actually. Not everyone that commits murder is sentenced to death. Or life imprisonment. The punishment varies. And how is a sin like taking the Lord's name in vain or adultery similar to murder. And oh by the way, the punishment in the bible is eternal torture. An infinite punishment for a finite crime seems ridiculous. Doesn't it to you?

And oh by the way, God "gifted man with original sin." Thanks God."