Perpetual motion machines already exist

[Emre_1974tr]

First of all, I believe there is a conceptual misunderstanding here. When scientists oppose the idea of perpetual motion machines, they primarily argue that such machines violate the law of conservation of energy. They state that it is impossible to create energy from nothing and, therefore, mechanisms that can operate continuously and indefinitely on their own are impossible. However, this is where the misunderstanding arises.

Throughout history, those who have designed perpetual motion mechanisms have attempted to achieve continuous motion by utilizing gravitational force, buoyancy, or the attraction-repulsion properties of magnets. In other words, there is no question of generating energy from nothing. Instead, efforts have been made to build machines that move continuously by harnessing existing energy sources or forces. Essentially, these are no different in principle from solar-powered vehicles. The goal is to produce machines that operate indefinitely, free of cost, and without harming the environment.

Another point of contention among scientists is the phrase "infinite motion," which is also misunderstood. Even our universe is not infinite and will eventually come to an end (only the Hereafter universe, in other words, the Lord’s Floor/Indallah, is infinite). However, a mechanism that operates for a very long time without stopping can certainly be described as being in continuous motion. For instance, a mechanism that runs and generates energy uninterrupted for thousands of years would unquestionably be considered a perpetual motion machine. Similarly, the "drinking bird" mechanism is, in fact, a type of perpetual motion device.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

First of all, I believe there is a conceptual misunderstanding here.

Yep.

/thread

 

[JayUtah]

First of all, I believe there is a conceptual misunderstanding here.

There sure is.

Similarly, the "drinking bird" mechanism is, in fact, a type of perpetual motion device.

Write out the energy balance equation for it.

 

[theprestige]

@Emre_1974tr , please show us one perpetual motion machine that uses gravity, buoyancy, or magnets, that has been harnessed to do useful work. Just one water pump, lathe, or generator, driven by a perpetual motion machine. Please.

 

[Thermal]

So... I guess Emre thinks hydroelectirc power is a perpetual motion machine if it comes from a dammed waterway?

 

[theprestige]

So... I guess Emre thinks hydroelectirc power is a perpetual motion machine if it comes from a dammed waterway?

To be fair, he did say there was a conceptual misunderstanding here.

 

[Thermal]

To be fair, he did say there was a conceptual misunderstanding here.

Is this founded on the Turks creating concepts or misunderstandings?

 

[theprestige]

Is this founded on the Turks creating concepts or misunderstandings?

I too am curious about this.

But right now I'm more curious to know how many perpetual motion machines, of what kind, @Emre_1974tr has in his home, doing work for him. A PMM attached to a generator means free electricity for life. He has to be doing at least that much, right?

Even a perpetual drinking bird could be used to trickle-charge a smartphone. He must have at least one in every room.

 

[Thermal]

I too am curious about this.

But right now I'm more curious to know how many perpetual motion machines, of what kind, @Emre_1974tr has in his home, doing work for him. A PMM attached to a generator means free electricity for life. He has to be doing at least that much, right?

Even a perpetual drinking bird could be used to trickle-charge a smartphone. He must have at least one in every room.

Perhaps he is investing his time in a larger drinking bird to power his car's drivetrain? I can see a gargantuan drinking bird perpetually powering electrical turbines for the grid.

 

[Georg]

Perpetual motion machines are turkish.

 

[Olmstead]

Everything is a perpetual motion machine as long as you don't care what it's doing.

Kind of, sort of, I don't know, I'm more of a humanities guy.

 

[theprestige]

Perhaps he is investing his time in a larger drinking bird to power his car's drivetrain? I can see a gargantuan drinking bird perpetually powering electrical turbines for the grid.

Why aren't the Turks already using drinking birds for free electricity nationwide? Are they stupid?

 

[JayUtah]

Why aren't the Turks already using drinking birds for free electricity nationwide? Are they stupid?

I've lived in some countries that I swear are trying to do this.

But the essential question remains: if perpetual motion machines are a scientific fact, and if the objection to them is merely a conceptual misunderstanding among the critics, why don't we have practical perpetual motion machines doing any of the important work? Maybe the secret is being held closely by some sort of cabal? Is Illuminati World Headquarters powered by the M.C. Escher Memorial Water Wheel?

 

[alfaniner]

First of all, I believe there is a conceptual misunderstanding here.

In other words, "Scientists are baffled."

Similarly, the "drinking bird" mechanism is, in fact, a type of perpetual motion device.

One of the very few minor nits I have with the movie Alien is that the opening pan shot includes one of these. (So does the Alien:Isolation video game.) Who is refilling the water container for these? OK maybe Ash is waking up and doing it and the Working Joes are doing it in the game, but if I'm not shown how am I supposed to know???

 

[Ziggurat]

First of all, I believe there is a conceptual misunderstanding here. When scientists oppose the idea of perpetual motion machines, they primarily argue that such machines violate the law of conservation of energy.

Machines that violate the first law of thermodynamics (energy conservation) are only one category of perpetual motion machines. Another category of perpetual motion machines is machines that violate the second law of thermodynamics (entropy increase). You have left this category out of your discussion. Either violation can produce what amount to "free" energy.

They state that it is impossible to create energy from nothing and, therefore, mechanisms that can operate continuously and indefinitely on their own are impossible.

You're also glossing over what it means to "operate". If a machine does some cyclic operation internally without interacting with the external world, does that count as operating? If so, then perpetual motion is possible without violating either the first or second law. But such a machine is also useless by definition, and it's not what people mean by a "perpetual motion machine". The kind of machine that's of interest, the kind of operation that's of interest, is one which can do something to the world outside the machine itself. At the most basic level, we want a machine that can output energy in some form. If you could do that by violating the first OR second law of thermodynamics, then you would have a revolution on your hands. That's what people really mean by a perpetual motion machine.

Throughout history, those who have designed perpetual motion mechanisms have attempted to achieve continuous motion by utilizing gravitational force, buoyancy, or the attraction-repulsion properties of magnets. In other words, there is no question of generating energy from nothing. Instead, efforts have been made to build machines that move continuously by harnessing existing energy sources or forces.

You're saying that people designing perpetual motion machines don't design perpetual motion machines, instead they try to design ordinary machines. Which, no, that's not what they're trying to do. That's all they can do because we can't break the laws of thermodynamics, but if you're trying to design a perpetual motion machine, you absolutely want to.

Another point of contention among scientists is the phrase "infinite motion," which is also misunderstood. Even our universe is not infinite and will eventually come to an end (only the Hereafter universe, in other words, the Lord’s Floor/Indallah, is infinite). However, a mechanism that operates for a very long time without stopping can certainly be described as being in continuous motion. For instance, a mechanism that runs and generates energy uninterrupted for thousands of years would unquestionably be considered a perpetual motion machine. Similarly, the "drinking bird" mechanism is, in fact, a type of perpetual motion device.

No. You fundamentally misunderstand the concept. A machine that runs for any amount of time by using an external power source IS NOT a perpetual motion machine, no matter how long it lasts. Conversely, a machine that violates the first or second law of thermodynamics in order to run IS a perpetual motion machine, even if it wears out in a short amount of time.

 

[JayUtah]

One of the very few minor nits I have with the movie Alien is that the opening pan shot includes one of these. (So does the Alien:Isolation video game.) Who is refilling the water container for these? OK maybe Ash is waking up and doing it and the Working Joes are doing it in the game, but if I'm not shown how am I supposed to know???

Now we're talking, Drinking Bird is a ubiquitous Easter egg in the Alien universe and adjacent fandom. And yes, the prevailing fan theory is that the bird's endurance over a months-long space voyage is foreshadowing for the later revelation of Ash's true nature and mission. Support for this is found in the conversation with Mother via Interface 2037¹ wherein Mother confesses that the Nostromo ² has been "rerouted to new co-ordinates." While not conclusive, the implication is that Ash did this under company orders, after the organic crew had been put into hibernation. Once you've established that the "synthetic" is out and about, unbeknownst to the hibernating crew, you can then assign any sort of duty to that.

However, that just opens up a new plot hole. If the crew is unaware until later than Ash is a synthetic, then the still-operating bird in the mess hall would create a WTF moment. The crew would undoubtedly be familiar with the kinds of things that would happen in the habitable volume of a ship left unattended for months on end. The crew's surprise when Ash is outed suggests it was not common practice at that time to crew the ship with synthetics, in contrast to what is evidently standard policy at the time the Sulaco is being flown. Whether that is a historical shift or the difference between a commercial ship and a Colonial Marine ship is up for debate.

Of course Prometheus establishes canonically that a synthetic was both unsurprising as a crew member and expected to monitor and maintain the ship while the organic crew hibernated. But to resolve this with the implications in Alien (1979) requires us to delve into the touchy subject of just how much of a faithful prequel Prometheus was intended to be. There are authoritative statements either way.

The real mystery is what operated the drinking bird that Homer Simpson put in charge of the Springfield nuclear power plant, since there was no water to provide evaporative cooling. And what knocked it over? This is what I think Elon Musk's purported galaxy brain should be studying.

______________
¹ My company's larger and more complex products often contain a locked-off Ethernet port and TCP/IP stack that allows authorized technicians to query the internal state of the item's computer logic for diagnostic and repair purposes. By fiat from engineering management, that feature is made available on IP port 2037.
² I have resolved to reduce the amount of name-dropping I do at this forum (and in general), but I have to mention that one of my good friends, John Eaves, worked on the restoration of the Nostromo hero model. The way he tells the story, the design firm hired to do it fell behind and it sat mostly idle for a month. John (a big Alien fan himself) got permission from the model owner and the design studio to do a lot of the work as a freelance contributor. One day I hope to see that model close up.

 

[alfaniner]

Honestly, I never thought of Ash being awake while the others are asleep until just before I made that post. I don't even recall, do we see him waking up?

...
² I have resolved to reduce the amount of name-dropping I do at this forum (and in general), but I have to mention that one of my good friends, John Eaves, worked on the restoration of the Nostromo hero model. The way he tells the story, the design firm hired to do it fell behind and it sat mostly idle for a month. John (a big Alien fan himself) got permission from the model owner and the design studio to do a lot of the work as a freelance contributor. One day I hope to see that model close up.

This John Eaves? Coincidentally, I had recently pulled out that book as an "unread" and it's sitting on my desk right now.

 

[JayUtah]

Honestly, I never thought of Ash being awake while the others are asleep until just before I made that post. I don't even recall, do we see him waking up?

He's in the hyper sleep pod next to Kane. We don't see him waking up, but he is depicted as being in hyper sleep with the rest.

Also, did you notice that there's a Mr. Fusion in the Nostromo's galley?

This John Eaves?

Yes, that John Eaves. He also designed the Enterprise NCC-1701E.

 

[alfaniner]

Also, did you notice that there's a Mr. Fusion in the Nostromo's galley?

Unless that was an inspiration for Back to the Future's finale, I think it was just a coffee grinder. (Alien - 1979, BTTF - 1985).

 

[JayUtah]

Unless that was an inspiration for Back to the Future's finale, I think it was just a coffee grinder. (Alien - 1979, BTTF - 1985).

It is, in fact, a coffee grinder—the Krups Coffina 223. In Alien it's being used as a coffee grinder. In Back to the Future, a Krups 223 was the starting point for the Mr. Fusion prop. It was an off-the-shelf item, which often is the easiest way to get to a prop that has to look manufactured. You can still get the Krups used on eBay if you have deep pockets. I'm told that several props in Star Trek TNG began life as bird feeders.