Merged USAID: is it really a bunch of crazy leftists? / Trump Was Absolutely Right to Shut Down USAID

[TragicMonkey]

It's not even a question of expertise, it's a question of authority: being an employee of the president's personal friend does not grant someone the authority to enter into these agencies and access their systems. That's literally criminal. If you or I did that, we'd be arrested. What authority does Musk have? He's not a goverment employee. He's not elected. He's not even appointed to a position-- "DOGE" is not a real agency of the government.

"President's Best Pal" isn't an authority over anything in the United States or its government.

FFS, if Obama had let an African billionaire friend of his seize control of federal agencies the people supporting this would have died of apoplexy just hearing about it!

 

[TragicMonkey]

Once again, I'm not appealing to Trump's competence. What he has is authority, and that authority is granted by his election.

Trump was elected, not Musk. Again: if Obama's African billionaire friend did half of what Musk is doing would you have been okay with that? Honestly? You wouldn't have minded?

 

[thaiboxerken]

Trump was elected, not Musk. Again: if Obama's African billionaire friend did half of what Musk is doing would you have been okay with that? Honestly? You wouldn't have minded?

It's not criminal if their guy does it. That's the rule.

 

[Ziggurat]

Trump was elected, not Musk.

And? You do know how the presidency works, right? The president doesn't run everything himself. A primary part of the job is the delegation of authority to personnel he picks. Yes, you don't vote for the various Secretaries. You vote for the guy who appoints the Secretaries. And the country voted for Trump, and Trump picked Elon for this particular task. Just like he's going to pick a whole bunch of other appointees.

Furthermore, note that even though Elon may be getting a lot of the press, he's not actually in charge of USAID. He has no real authority, his position is just advisory. Marco Rubio is the acting director of USAID, not Elon.

Again: if Obama's African billionaire friend did half of what Musk is doing would you have been okay with that? Honestly? You wouldn't have minded?

First off, what's with the "African" bit? Are you xenophobic, or are you just trying to trigger what you assume is xenophobia in others? But more importantly, if an Obama appointee was seriously cutting government spending and reducing the size of government? Yeah, I'd be OK with that.

But what are the odds of that ever happening? None, obviously.

I don't think you really thought through your post.

 

[JayUtah]

I think you would probably be reasonably competent to audit my retirement portfolio.

Doge isn't being asked to manage USAID.

What a strange answer.

 

[TragicMonkey]

And? You do know how the presidency works, right? The president doesn't run everything himself. A primary part of the job is the delegation of authority to personnel he picks. Yes, you don't vote for the various Secretaries. You vote for the guy who appoints the Secretaries. And the country voted for Trump, and Trump picked Elon for this particular task. Just like he's going to pick a whole bunch of other appointees.

Furthermore, note that even though Elon may be getting a lot of the press, he's not actually in charge of USAID. He has no real authority, his position is just advisory. Marco Rubio is the acting director of USAID, not Elon.

First off, what's with the "African" bit? Are you xenophobic, or are you just trying to trigger what you assume is xenophobia in others? But more importantly, if an Obama appointee was seriously cutting government spending and reducing the size of government? Yeah, I'd be OK with that.

But what are the odds of that ever happening? None, obviously.

I don't think you really thought through your post.

Cabinet secretaries get nominated, and confirmed by Congress, and head agencies that are established and have legal authority.

As for Musk having no real authority, on that we agree. And therefore he should be arrested just like any other civilian who intruded into federal agency offices without the right to be there.

It's hardly xenophobic to question why non-Americans are seizing power over American agencies.

Also: I think you're lying. I don't think you'd be okay with this at all if Musk had been put in this non-position of power by Biden, or Obama. You (claim to on the internet, anyway) support this because Trump is your guy. You are treating Trump like a monarch, and accepting whatever he wants, and because that includes showering favors and powers on his favorites you're going along with it. I don't think you would have accepted that from a Democratic president.

 

[Trebuchet]

Well, I have absolutely no idea what the US funds through its USAid programme, except insofar as the name is a clue. My contention is that the people who have halted it all, at least until they sift through and see if they approve, quite possibly have little more idea than I do, but they sure do have opinions.

What I'm saying is that you appear to be assuming that shutting down USAid can't harm anyone that matters and can't harm the US's international reputation because you just assume that all it's funding is silly fluff you don't care about, exemplified by queer activism in faraway places.

That assumption is a fine example of begging the question.

Brown lives don't matter.

 

[Donal]

I think you would probably be reasonably competent to audit my retirement portfolio.

Doge isn't being asked to manage USAID.

They are preventing it from doing its function. They locked employees out.

that's horrendous managing, but its managing.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

But more importantly, if an Obama appointee was seriously cutting government spending and reducing the size of government? Yeah, I'd be OK with that.

But what are the odds of that ever happening? None, obviously.

I don't think you really thought through your post.

I have shown that USAID is involved in combatting various diseases. I would not be OK with Obama, Biden, or Trump cutting those programs, absent a very persuasive reason.

Suppose the next president finds some fraud or waste at The Pentagon. Someone in his administration shuts down the whole defense department, telling everyone to go away and perhaps come back in a few months when they have it all sorted out. Would you be OK with that? If not, what makes it OK for other parts of government?

 

[Ziggurat]

Cabinet secretaries get nominated, and confirmed by Congress, and head agencies that are established and have legal authority.

As for Musk having no real authority, on that we agree. And therefore he should be arrested just like any other civilian who intruded into federal agency offices without the right to be there.

On what grounds do you say he's intruding? Because some low-level bureaucrats don't want him there? Yeah, that's not how it works either. Federal agencies don't categorically prohibit civilians from entry. In some cases you need to have a legitimate reason to be there, but he does. So the idea that he's trespassing is just stupid, and I can't believe you fell for it. I thought you were smarter than that.

It's hardly xenophobic to question why non-Americans are seizing power over American agencies.

It's xenophobic to call an American citizen a non-American. And he hasn't seized any power. Trump delegated some oversight powers to him. But that's it. Musk isn't actually calling the shots at any agency.

Also: I think you're lying.

I don't care, Margaret. You can tell yourself that story all you want to, but you only do that to console yourself.

I don't think you'd be okay with this at all if Musk had been put in this non-position of power by Biden, or Obama. You (claim to on the internet, anyway) support this because Trump is your guy. You are treating Trump like a monarch, and accepting whatever he wants

Whatever he wants? No, not whatever he wants. I think his idea of the US taking over Gaza is stupid, and I don't think it will happen.

But I'm perfectly fine with paring down USAID. I make no apologies for that. And if Biden or Obama had appointed someone to help cut a department or agency you were happy to see cut, you would have no problem with it either. Your only real objection is either you don't think USAID should be cut (in which case why does it matter that Elon is helping to do it), or just Orange Man Bad^TM.

 

[johnny karate]

Dude. You picked the stupidest hill to die on.

I acknowledge that the PR release you linked substantiates that Musk's team is "good with numbers". I will also note that the same PR release established that none of them have the slightest bit of experience in doing what they are currently doing, or in anything really, because they are all inexperience kids. Seems like that might be relevant to their ability to perform competently.

Once again, I'm not appealing to Trump's competence. What he has is authority, and that authority is granted by his election.

If authority is all that is required for accountability, the USAID employees and contractors are all accountable to the USAID administrator and yet you weirdly claimed that they had no accountability.

In what sense am I deferring to them? In no sense other than how we all defer to our elected government to actually carry out the job of government, because that's how the system works. But I haven't assumed any particular decision they have made is correct because of some assumed expertise. You're the one doing that, not me.

You have literally made the case in this thread that USAID is somehow a rogue agency that we cannot trust and are now arguing that we can trust those currently tearing it down because "that's how the system works".

How do you think the USAID in the form that you find so objectionable came to be if not through our elected government carrying out the job of government?

 

[johnny karate]

Yup. Trump's spending is going to be just as transparent as Biden's. So do you have a problem with that level of transparency or not?

You made a claim about Trump reducing government spending. I asked you to back it up and you provided a source that you had previously disparaged. Your claim remains unsubstantiated.

 

[Ziggurat]

Suppose the next president finds some fraud or waste at The Pentagon. Someone in his administration shuts down the whole defense department, telling everyone to go away and perhaps come back in a few months when they have it all sorted out. Would you be OK with that? If not, what makes it OK for other parts of government?

I'd be OK with a president doing a 90 day pause on all military weapons development programs. Shutting down all the military? Yeah, that's not even remotely equivalent to shutting down USAID. I think you're smart enough to understand why, and your question isn't actually asked in good faith.

 

[TragicMonkey]

On what grounds do you say he's intruding? Because some low-level bureaucrats don't want him there? Yeah, that's not how it works either. Federal agencies don't categorically prohibit civilians from entry. In some cases you need to have a legitimate reason to be there, but he does. So the idea that he's trespassing is just stupid, and I can't believe you fell for it. I thought you were smarter than that.

It's xenophobic to call an American citizen a non-American. And he hasn't seized any power. Trump delegated some oversight powers to him. But that's it. Musk isn't actually calling the shots at any agency.

I don't care, Margaret. You can tell yourself that story all you want to, but you only do that to console yourself.

Whatever he wants? No, not whatever he wants. I think his idea of the US taking over Gaza is stupid, and I don't think it will happen.

But I'm perfectly fine with paring down USAID. I make no apologies for that. And if Biden or Obama had appointed someone to help cut a department or agency you were happy to see cut, you would have no problem with it either. Your only real objection is either you don't think USAID should be cut (in which case why does it matter that Elon is helping to do it), or just Orange Man Bad^TM.

I dare you to try strolling into the Treasury and head for the servers and see what happens.

It's not xenophobic at all to point out Musk is South African. Even birthright citizenship means nothing now, so certainly paperwork citizenship doesn't either. His foreign entanglements make him a security risk.

Who's Margaret? I'm sure that's some kind of homophobic insult, nice one. Your king hates my kind, too.

And no, I wouldn't accept the same behavior from someone doing things I want them to do. The ends does not justify the means. Part of being a civilized nation is having proper procedures, rules, oversight. "I'm the president's friend in charge of a made-up unofficial agency, now my stooges get access to all agencies' classified systems" is not a thing for ANY political persuasion.

 

[Ziggurat]

I acknowledge that the PR release you linked substantiates that Musk's team is "good with numbers". I will also note that the same PR release established that none of them have the slightest bit of experience in doing what they are currently doing

What is it you think they're doing? I suspect you don't actually know.

If authority is all that is required for accountability

Never said. Authority is all that's required for authority.

the USAID employees and contractors are all accountable to the USAID administrator

Guess who that is. Guess how he views the current situation.

You have literally made the case in this thread that USAID is somehow a rogue agency that we cannot trust

Not really. I made the case that their spending isn't transparent. You can trust them as much as you like, I don't really care.

and are now arguing that we can trust those currently tearing it down because "that's how the system works".

I don't care if you don't trust Trump. I don't expect you to. You aren't required to.

What I do expect you to do is acknowledge his legal authority to run the executive branch. That's the part of how the system works that you seem to have a problem with.

How do you think the USAID in the form that you find so objectionable came to be if not through our elected government carrying out the job of government?

That's exactly how it came to be. And now it may come to un-be, through that same process. Don't like the results? Win the next election.

 

[Ziggurat]

I dare you to try strolling into the Treasury and head for the servers and see what happens.

Are you seriously pretending that there's no difference between any old guy off the street and someone specifically authorized by the president?

You cannot be that dumb. You just cannot be.

Who's Margaret? I'm sure that's some kind of homophobic insult, nice one. Your king hates my kind, too.

I knew you wouldn't get the reference, and that's fine, it wasn't important. But honestly, to jump to the conclusion that I'm making a homophobic insult? Dude, what is up with you? Who broke your brain? I know we disagree about a lot, but I'm not actually your enemy.

And no, I wouldn't accept the same behavior from someone doing things I want them to do. The ends does not justify the means. Part of being a civilized nation is having proper procedures, rules, oversight.

What laws are being broken?

"I'm the president's friend in charge of a made-up unofficial agency, now my stooges get access to all agencies' classified systems" is not a thing for ANY political persuasion.

Yeah, no. DOGE doesn't have access to all agencies classified systems. It has read access to some sensitive systems such as some Treasury payment systems, but sensitive isn't classified.

 

[JayUtah]

It has read access to some sensitive systems such as some Treasury payment systems, but sensitive isn't classified.

Treasury payment systems include classified information.

 

[Ziggurat]

Treasury payment systems include classified information.

And do you have evidence that DOGE has illegal access to classified information?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Are you seriously pretending that there's no difference between any old guy off the street and someone specifically authorized by the president?

I don't think the president has the power to authorize people with no process or confirmation into posts that don't exist.

You cannot be that dumb. You just cannot be.

Yes, everyone who doesn't agree with you must be dumb.

I knew you wouldn't get the reference, and that's fine, it wasn't important. But honestly, to jump to the conclusion that I'm making a homophobic insult? Dude, what is up with you? Who broke your brain? I know we disagree about a lot, but I'm not actually your enemy.

You're supporting a nascent monarchy in what used to be a republic. Until now I'd have said that was a line no American would cross but I've been surprised. I literally don't know if there's a bottom limit to what you'd support.

What laws are being broken?

Trespassing, accessing computer systems without authorization, installing software and hardware without security vetting. Hell, at my job we can be fired for plugging in an outside USB, and I'm not even government. An entire server? Sending emails in the clear? In one day Musk did more IT security damage than Hillary Clinton's fabled private email ever could have done.

Yeah, no. DOGE doesn't have access to all agencies classified systems. It has read access to some sensitive systems such as some Treasury payment systems, but sensitive isn't classified.

Awww, you believe what was said! Suuuuuure they have "read only" access. If you believe that I have a beachfront luxury hotel in Gaza to sell you.

 

[JayUtah]

And do you have evidence that DOGE has illegal access to classified information?

You misspelled, "Oops, I was mistaken."