• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Strict biological definitions of male/female

Steersman, it's you who doesn't compute, because you base your entire idiosyncratic argument on a misunderstanding of English grammar. This has been pointed out to you innumerable times, so now I mainly just scroll past your repetitive, self-referencing screeds.
 
But he's still rather clueless in insisting that "worker bees are sterile females". That's an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms. If any organism is a female then it can't be sterile. And if it's sterile -- unable to produce gametes -- then it can't be a female. Like saying someone is a 45-year old teenager. Does not compute.
Exactly, like saying a 70 year old woman is female. Does not compute. No gametes. no sex!
 
Exactly, like saying a 70 year old woman is female. Does not compute. No gametes. no sex!
👍 By George, I think you've got it!! 😉🙂

Though not sure how serious you are. Bit of a joke, and somewhat depressing, how even Dawkins relies on some "mythical essence" to grant sex category membership cards with his "potential to produce".
 
I've not been able to find any scientific sources which tell us how to discern the first bolded case from the second one.
Then you can't have looked very hard. This took me less that 10 seconds to find


For those who affirm "We can ALWAYS ultimately determine whether an individual human is male or female"
I'd be interested in knowing how you do this for PAIS individuals.
There are 2 main types of AIS, which are determined by how much the body is able to use testosterone.​
These are:
  • complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) – where testosterone has no effect on sex development, so the genitals are entirely female
  • partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (PAIS) – where testosterone has some effect on sex development, so the genitals are often not as expected for boys or girls
PAIS is usually noticed at birth because the genitals appear different.

CAIS can be more difficult* to spot, as the genitals usually look like those of any other girl. It's often not diagnosed until puberty, when periods do not start and pubic and underarm hair does not develop.

* Please note: "can be more difficult""impossible"

"Sex rejection takes place" seems fairly question begging, unless we are told which observable factors led someone to that conclusion in any given case. We know that gametes aren't breaking the tie here, so what really is?
You did not address how to tell that "sex rejection" has happened, or even give us a link to a publication (non-meme) which uses that language.


Direct link to document here...

WARNING: PDF File size 937kb

Take particular note of Panel 14

You also did not address why you said CAIS individuals are male while the meme chart (which you support) says otherwise female.
I modified the CHART especially for you, and I will explain it like I did before, but this time in baby steps so that you can follow along

DSD-MvF-CAIS-explainer.jpg


WRT above: https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...03/Sex+Development+Flow+Charts+2024.08.05.pdf

An individual can end up becoming either male or female, depending on what happens with a specific gene - a DNA-binding transcriptor that regulates gene expression. This gene is known as the "Androgen Receptor" (AR) gene, which has several functions, one of which is critical to the development and maintenance of the male phenotype.

When a normal individual's AR gene does fire, that individual will develope into a male

When a normal individual's AR gene does not fire, that individual will develop into a female

In some individuals, specifically individuals with karyotype 46:XY SRY+, the AR does not fire correctly, and the individual can develop into either a male or a female depending on other factors in the gene itself. When that happens, if the changed factor in the gene is a specific type of mutation that prevents androgen binding, the body does not respond to testosterone, and this will lead to that individual developing with female genitals. This is "sex rejection" - the 46:XY SRY+ individual rejects the genetic information telling it to develop male genitals, and so it reverts to the default pathway and ends up being female despite the fact that they have XY chromosomes.
However, there is another possibility. The AR fires, but the specific of mutation doesn't entirely prevent androgen binding, it only limits it, and the body does respond to testosterone but ineffectively, and this will lead to that individual developing with male genitals. The sex development path is not entirely rejected but it is limited resulting in underdevelopment of gonads and charactistics such as less facial hair than usual, less or lack of body hair, smaller muscle mass, a less prominent Adam's apple and a high-pitched voice. In some cases, gynecomastia (breast development) is seen around puberty.

So, we end up with a possibility of an 46:XY SRY+ individual being male or female, entirely depending on the type and seriously of the mutation on the AR gene. But most importantly, they ALWAYS follow a pathway that leads to development as a male or a female. THERE IS NO PATHWAY THAT LEADS TO A THIRD SEX, AN INDETERMINATE SEX OR NO SEX AT ALL.

Now this is my understanding of how this stuff works. As I said earlier, I am not a biologist, but @Louden Wilde and @Rolfe are, and I expect they will correct me if there are any glaring errors in my understanding, or if there are any important details I have left out.
 
Last edited:
When a normal individual's AR gene does fire, that individual will develope into a male

When a normal individual's AR gene does not fire, that individual will develop into a female
In some individuals, specifically individuals with karyotype 46:XY SRY+, the AR does not fire correctly, and the individual can develop into either a male or a female depending on other factors in the gene itself.
When that happens, if the changed factor in the gene is a specific type of mutation that prevents androgen binding, the body does not respond to testosterone, and this will lead to that individual developing with female genitals. This is "sex rejection" - the 46:XY SRY+ individual rejects the genetic information telling it to develop male genitals, and so it reverts to the default pathway and ends up being female despite the fact that they have XY chromosomes.However, there is another possibility. The AR fires, but the specific of mutation doesn't entirely prevent androgen binding, it only limits it, and the the body does respond to testosterone but ineffectively, and this will lead to that individual developing with male genitals. The sex development path is not entirely rejected but it is limited resulting in underdevelopment of gonads and charactistics such as less facial hair than usual, less or lack of body hair, smaller muscle mass, a less prominent Adam's apple and a high-pitched voice. In some cases, gynecomastia (breast development) is seen around puberty.

So, we end up with a possibility of an 46:XY SRY+ individual being male or female, entirely depending on the type and seriously of the mutation on the AR gene. But most importantly, they ALWAYS follow a pathway that leads to development as a male or a female. THERE IS NO PATHWAY THAT LEADS TO A THIRD SEX, AN INDETERMINATE SEX OR NO SEX AT ALL.
I think this is wrong.

CAIS (46, XY SRY+) will appear to be female externally (including genitalia), but internally will be male (for example, will have testicles).

1738733310238.png
 
Steersman, it's you who doesn't compute, because you base your entire idiosyncratic argument on a misunderstanding of English grammar. This has been pointed out to you innumerable times ...
That's just you -- and they -- insisting, innumerable times, that 2+2=5

You might try reading Dawkins' article. And convincing Jerry Coyne that the intersex are not sexless. The convention in most of mainstream biology -- outside of various benighted backwaters thither and yon -- is that the presence of functioning gonads is the sine qua non for membership in the sex categories.
... so now I mainly just scroll past your repetitive, self-referencing screeds.
🙄 "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up", amirite?
 
WARNING: PDF File size 937kb

Take particular note of Panel 14


I modified the CHART especially for you, and I will explain it like I did before, but this time in baby steps so that you can follow along

DSD-MvF-CAIS-explainer.jpg
The new source you are citing contradicts you. You said CAIS is female, and your chart does too.

The new source you cite says "male"...

1738743199032.png
 
The new source you are citing contradicts you.
No it doesn't

You said CAIS is female
No I didn't

and your chart does too.
... and?

The new source you cite says "male"...
Well, yes, that's what I said too

You're as bad as damion.

Go back and RE-READ what I said. I can well understand why I need to walk him through it in baby steps, but I expect better from you!

ETA: Never mind. I can't be arsed waiting so I will reply now!
 
Last edited:
The irony, it burns.
🙄 If it was really the case that "produces gametes" meant "maybe in ancient history" or "maybe some time over the rainbow" -- as you and many others here seem to "think" -- then there wouldn't be any such thing as sequential hermaphrodites since all members of those many species would always be male and female right from conception.

For someone supposedly with an FRS to their name, you sure don't seem to have much in the way of clues about the logical and philosophical principles undergirding systems of naming and defining biological categories.
 
You're as bad as damion.

Go back and RE-READ what I said. I can well understand why I need to walk him through it in baby steps, but I expect better from you!
I appreciate the compliment, but I read it, and re-read it.

This is
"sex rejection" - the 46:XY SRY+ individual rejects the genetic information telling it to develop male genitals, and so
it reverts to the default pathway and ends up being female despite the fact that they have XY chromosomes.
This is contradicted by the very "paradox institute" link you gave which says that CAIS is male even with "sex rejection".

Is "sex rejection" a medical term that is commonly used in biology?
 
They are genetically male

Genetically male means "having an XY genotype, which is determined by inheriting a Y chromosome from a father"

But they are physically female

Physically in that case means as to their genitalia, which is why they are on the female side of the chart.

Males who inherit an abnormal gene, called the androgen receptor (AR) gene, from their mothers have a 1 in 4 chance of developing AIS.
Females can also inherit and carry the gene, but they won’t develop AIS."

To summarize: Individuals with AIS are
- always genetically male, since females cannot develop AIS
- never have internal female reproductive organs, therefore cannot be female
 
Males who inherit an abnormal gene, called the androgen receptor (AR) gene, from their mothers have a 1 in 4 chance of developing AIS.
Females can also inherit and carry the gene, but they won’t develop AIS."

To summarize: Individuals with AIS are
- always genetically male, since females cannot develop AIS
- never have internal female reproductive organs, therefore cannot be female
So THIS is WRONG!

1738747381131.png
 
I appreciate the compliment, but I read it, and re-read it.


This is contradicted by the very "paradox institute" link you gave which says that CAIS is male even with "sex rejection".

Is "sex rejection" a medical term that is commonly used in biology?
You are still missing the important point. Maybe you simply aren't capable of understanding.

46:XY SRY+ ALWAYS results in a GENETICALLY MALE individual (which is what the Paradox Institute panel says, and what you still don't understand)

There is only ONE possible GENETIC outcome BUT there are TWO possible PHYSICAL outcomes

1. The genetic mutation in the AR gene ENTIRELY stops the body's response to testosterone, the male developmental pathways is NOT triggered (sex rejection) and the individual goes on to develop female genitalia. This individual is PHYSICALLY FEMALE but GENETICALLY MALE... XY chromosomes

2. The genetic mutation in the AR gene DOES NOT ENTIRELY stop the body's response to testosterone, the male developmental pathway IS triggered (no sex rejection) and the individual goes on to develop male genitalia (albeit underdeveloped) This individual is PHYSICALLY MALE AND GENETICALLY MALE... XY chromosomes .
 
Last edited:
Am I going insane? Seriously! I think I must be going insane. Could someone reassure me that I am not going insane? (you don't count, smartcooky)

You are still missing the important point. Maybe you simply aren't capable of understanding.

46:XY SRY+ ALWAYS results in a GENETICALLY MALE individual (which is what the Paradox Institute panel says, and what you still don't understand)

There is only ONE possible GENETIC outcome BUT there are TWO possible PHYSICAL outcomes

1. The genetic mutation in the AR gene ENTIRELY stops the body's response to testosterone, the male developmental pathways is NOT triggered (sex rejection) and the individual goes on to develop female genitalia. This individual is PHYSICALLY FEMALE but GENETICALLY MALE... XY chromosomes

2. The genetic mutation in the AR gene DOES NOT ENTIRELY stop the body's response to testosterone, the male developmental pathway IS triggered (no sex rejection) and the individual goes on to develop male genitalia (albeit underdeveloped) This individual is PHYSICALLY MALE AND GENETICALLY MALE... XY chromosomes .

That is all well and good, if you so insist. BUT.....

You said....


To summarize:
Individuals with AIS are-
always genetically male, since females cannot develop AIS-
never have internal female reproductive organs, therefore cannot be female

Indeed! Which is why the chart is WRONG because it says those with "complete androgen insensitivity syndrome" are FEMALE.

What is "complete androgen insensitivity syndrome"? It is CAIS!

This is the important bit!!
 
🙄 If it was really the case that "produces gametes" meant "maybe in ancient history" or "maybe some time over the rainbow" -- as you and many others here seem to "think" -- then there wouldn't be any such thing as sequential hermaphrodites since all members of those many species would always be male and female right from conception.

For someone supposedly with an FRS to their name, you sure don't seem to have much in the way of clues about the logical and philosophical principles undergirding systems of naming and defining biological categories.

You don't know the difference between FRS and FIBiol, seriously?
 
Am I going insane? Seriously! I think I must be going insane. Could someone reassure me that I am not going insane? (you don't count, smartcooky)



That is all well and good, if you so insist. BUT.....

You said....




Indeed! Which is why the chart is WRONG because it says those with "complete androgen insensitivity syndrome" are FEMALE.

What is "complete androgen insensitivity syndrome"? It is CAIS!

This is the important bit!!
headbang.gif
 
That doesn't further your argument.

However, maybe this will...
1738753344394.png

Remember the old joke.
If my auntie had bollocks she would be my uncle.
Smartcooky would presumably say, "well, that depends. Maybe she had CAIS which resulted in sex rejection which is why her sex would appear in the female column."

By the way, I don't think "sex rejection" is an actual term in biology, but I could be wrong, and would be happy for Rolfe or someone else who knows biology to put me straight on that.
 
That doesn't further your argument.

However, maybe this will...
View attachment 58852

Remember the old joke.
If my auntie had bollocks she would be my uncle.
Smartcooky would presumably say, "well, that depends. Maybe she had CAIS which resulted in sex rejection which is why her sex would appear in the female column."

By the way, I don't think "sex rejection" is an actual term in biology, but I could be wrong, and would be happy for Rolfe or someone else who knows biology to put me straight on that.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I am aware of all that. You are still missing the point.

I have tried to explain this to you three times... you are still not getting it. At this point, I can only believe you are doing this intentionally.

I give up - you win the internet... I can't be arsed wasting any more time dealing with your crap.
 
When that happens, if the changed factor in the gene is a specific type of mutation that prevents androgen binding, the body does not respond to testosterone, and this will lead to that individual developing with female genitals. This is "sex rejection" - the 46:XY SRY+ individual rejects the genetic information telling it to develop male genitals, and so it reverts to the default pathway and ends up being female despite the fact that they have XY chromosomes.
Okay, so CAIS individuals are female, got it.

To summarize: Individuals with AIS are
- always genetically male, since females cannot develop AIS
- never have internal female reproductive organs, therefore cannot be female
Okay, so CAIS individuals are male, got it.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom