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Split Thread Diversity Equity and Inclusion and merit in employment etc

novaphile said:
Fairly straight forward really, I'm surprised you don't understand.

DEI: Best person for the job.

Non DEI: Best white man for the job.

If you're a member of the class of people that think that a white man is always the best person for any job, then you have issues.
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How about we not factor in a person's race or sex? Yeah? What wrong with doing that?
 
Trausti said:
How about we not factor in a person's race or sex? Yeah? What wrong with doing that?
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And if that was ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ happening then systemic racism wouldn't be a thing. Just because you don't "think" (I use that term very loosely) that there is systemic racism, doesn't mean there isn't. If it were just as easy as saying "oh, we won't factor in race, etc." then it would be a perfect world.

I get it, you're fine with racism. Everyone knows. You wear it on your sleeve like a tacky shirt. That doesn't mean the rest of us agree with your ludicrous implication.
 
plague311 said:
And if that was ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ happening then systemic racism wouldn't be a thing. Just because you don't "think" (I use that term very loosely) that there is systemic racism, doesn't mean there isn't. If it were just as easy as saying "oh, we won't factor in race, etc." then it would be a perfect world.

I get it, you're fine with racism. Everyone knows. You wear it on your sleeve like a tacky shirt. That doesn't mean the rest of us agree with your ludicrous implication.
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Can you please give concrete examples of current systemic racism - other than DEI and college admissions, of course. Concrete examples.
 
As an Australian I can remember watching American movies and TV content. There appeared to be an unwritten law that menial jobs were reserved for blacks. I was shocked to learn that the American army fighting the Fascist Nazis was in fact segregated.

There was no law that only blacks had the menial jobs. It was a culturally accepted norm. People like their cultural norms. They create their comfort zone, their 'common sense' world view. Even if they aren't a law, to violate them will cause them distress and a reflexive response.

That is why Trump invoked the law of 'common sense" in his plane crash speech.
 
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Trausti said:
Can you please give concrete examples of current systemic racism - other than DEI and college admissions, of course. Concrete examples.
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Lets define this first. What would you consider to be "concrete examples of current systemic racism"? Cause I get bogged down in this ◊◊◊◊ with people like you all of the time. Are you asking for an example of someone in charge saying "Don't let the blacks come here"? Because of course that doesn't happen. I have this stupid ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ battle with Thermal all of the time in the "while black" threads. It isn't obvious like that, it's subtly overlooking a person's application that happens to be Black.

That being said, I doubt I'll engage with you on this topic. I honestly don't value your opinion on the topic and have seen this a dozen or so times before. Unless there's something compelling, you and I don't have to do this. We won't agree and I find most of your opinions on the topic misguided and absurd.
 
plague311 said:
That being said, I doubt I'll engage with you on this topic. I honestly don't value your opinion on the topic and have seen this a dozen or so times before. Unless there's something compelling, you and I don't have to do this. We won't agree and I find most of your opinions on the topic misguided and absurd.
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'cause you got nothing. Systemic racism is illegal. If you could actually cite examples of it, I'd whole hardly support you that it should be stopped. Maybe that's where we're different. I think systemic racism is wrong, regardless of a person's race. But usually in these discussions "systemic racism" is attached to any disparty in racial group representation. Which isn't evidence of systemic racism at all.
 
Mojo said:
Because racists gonna race. Even if not intentionally.
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So did I get to my level of expertise and respect within my field because someone was gatekeeping on my behalf, and giving me a leg up to protect me from the sexists? Or did I get here on my own merits and effort, and it turns out that there just aren't as many sexists as your ideology insists?

Did my father get to his level of expertise and respect within their field because of their knowledge and skill, or because some white person kept the ravening racists at bay and gave them a extra boost so they could overcome whitey?
 
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plague311 said:
He probably is rolling in his grave at people who use a few relatives as spokespeople for an entire race and use it to justify overturning policy aimed at bringing equality to the workforce. I bet he is rolling in his grave but not for the reason you think he is, neat post though.
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I'm not so sure you actually took to hear King's message.
But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice. In the process of gaining our rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred.
...

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
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I grew up judging by the content of one's character, and as a result I have a very diverse set of friends and family. In the last two decades, I've watched that noble ideal be unwound, so that the focus has come full circle back to the color of one's skin.
 
plague311 said:
Ironically Emily's Cat is a self-proclaimed, and often stated, feminist that can't even stand the thought of women being marginalized. Somehow, though, the DEI policies are sexist to her, and not seen as protection from the literal ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ person that Trump is putting into a position of power. She bitches about the polices being written by WHITE people (despite no ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ evidence of such, just a random ass claim by a rightie) but Darren is saying that WHITE men, specifically, are the only ones that can be trusted.

Now the people getting their faces ate are cheering the leopards on, mind boggling.
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Beattie is a dumbass misogynistic racist.

You know that I'm not cheering on the leopard right? I'm just not cheering on the jaguar in order to stick it to the leopard.
 
Emily's Cat said:
So did I get to my level of expertise and respect within my field because someone was gatekeeping on my behalf, and giving me a leg up to protect me from the sexists? Or did I get here on my own merits and effort, and it turns out that there just aren't as many sexists as your ideology insists?

Did my father get to his level of expertise and respect within their field because of their knowledge and skill, or because some white person kept the ravening racists at bay and gave them a extra boost so they could overcome whitey?
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Is "getting to a level of expertise and respect" a simple thing resulting from a single cause, that can be easily reduced to exactly one of two conditions in a binary state? Either completely merit or completely DEI, one or the other 100% completely, on/off? No combination of factors, no gradations, no multiple causes? It's just that simple, one or the other?

Reality is much more complicated than that, almost everything that ever happens is the result of a multiplicity of causes and events.
 
a_unique_person said:
As an Australian I can remember watching American movies and TV content. There appeared to be an unwritten law that menial jobs were reserved for blacks. I was shocked to learn that the American army fighting the Fascist Nazis was in fact segregated.

There was no law that only blacks had the menial jobs. It was a culturally accepted norm. People like their cultural norms. They create their comfort zone, their 'common sense' world view. Even if they aren't a law, to violate them will cause them distress and a reflexive response.

That is why Trump invoked the law of 'common sense" in his plane crash speech.
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What era were these films and TV from? There was absolutely segregation up until the 60s, and there was a lot of entrenched discrimination to overcome - not all of it is entirely gone.

On the other hand, oh great and noble Aussie... how are your indigenous people doing? Fully fair representation and no discrimination, right? No problems, no unequal treatment ever, right? Right?
 
TragicMonkey said:
Is "getting to a level of expertise and respect" a simple thing resulting from a single cause, that can be easily reduced to exactly one of two conditions in a binary state? Either completely merit or completely DEI, one or the other 100% completely, on/off? No combination of factors, no gradations, no multiple causes? It's just that simple, one or the other?

Reality is much more complicated than that, almost everything that ever happens is the result of a multiplicity of causes and events.
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Gotcha. Nice to know that you believe that at least part of the multiplicity of causes for my success is because someone wanted to give females a leg up regardless of whether my abilities were actually up to the task. I'm only where I'm at because some portion of my career was handed to me just because I'm a female.
 
plague311 said:
And if that was ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ happening then systemic racism wouldn't be a thing. Just because you don't "think" (I use that term very loosely) that there is systemic racism, doesn't mean there isn't. If it were just as easy as saying "oh, we won't factor in race, etc." then it would be a perfect world.

I get it, you're fine with racism. Everyone knows. You wear it on your sleeve like a tacky shirt. That doesn't mean the rest of us agree with your ludicrous implication.
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There's always that whole historical impact thing.

Step 1: One group of people screws over another for generations.
Step 2: Conditions change and it's no longer so easy to get away with screwing over the other group of people, but lots of damage has already been done and the first group has gained significant advantages, often due to engaging in official illegal actions that they got away with as part of how they screwed the other group.
Step 3: The first group whines about how very unfair any and all actions to actually correct the wrongs done are. Like...

Trausti said:
'cause you got nothing. Systemic racism is illegal. If you could actually cite examples of it, I'd whole hardly support you that it should be stopped. Maybe that's where we're different. I think systemic racism is wrong, regardless of a person's race. But usually in these discussions "systemic racism" is attached to any disparty in racial group representation. Which isn't evidence of systemic racism at all.
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When a number of the disparities that you reference are fundamentally a result of said illegal actions, that's hardly some grand point you have there. It's not like it's actually hard to find evidence to those ends, either way. To borrow a short list of general categories to touch on as examples - residential segregation, unfair lending practices and other barriers to home ownership and accumulating wealth, schools’ dependence on local property taxes, environmental injustice, biased policing and sentencing of men and boys of color, and voter suppression policies are all areas where systemic racism has very much come into play. Even if you wanted to pretend that it's not happening now (which the Republican Party's actions have long shown to be a rather ridiculous assertion), the damage done wouldn't remotely vanish. Even if problems weren't ongoing, of course, wounds as massive as that would take a long time to actually heal and let matters return to a more natural equilibrium. When the wounds are being continually aggravated as they are, said healing is slowed or worse.

In a somewhat different direction, when a person or group espouses some principle only when they think that invoking it will help them, there's something to be said about whether others have any reason to treat that as actually being sincere. Even more so when said group shows with their actions that principle after principle that they claimed to value are discardable at the drop of a hat.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Gotcha. Nice to know that you believe that at least part of the multiplicity of causes for my success is because someone wanted to give females a leg up regardless of whether my abilities were actually up to the task. I'm only where I'm at because some portion of my career was handed to me just because I'm a female.
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An odd interpretation, I think.
 
Aridas said:
There's always that whole historical impact thing.

Step 1: One group of people screws over another for generations.
Step 2: Conditions change and it's no longer so easy to get away with screwing over the other group of people, but lots of damage has already been done and the first group has gained significant advantages, often due to engaging in official illegal actions that they got away with as part of how they screwed the other group.
Step 3: The first group whines about how very unfair any and all actions to actually correct the wrongs done are. Like...



When a number of the disparities that you reference are fundamentally a result of said illegal actions, that's hardly some grand point you have there. It's not like it's actually hard to find evidence to those ends, either way. To borrow a short list of general categories to touch on as examples - residential segregation, unfair lending practices and other barriers to home ownership and accumulating wealth, schools’ dependence on local property taxes, environmental injustice, biased policing and sentencing of men and boys of color, and voter suppression policies are all areas where systemic racism has very much come into play. Even if you wanted to pretend that it's not happening now (which the Republican Party's actions have long shown to be a rather ridiculous assertion), the damage done wouldn't remotely vanish. Even if problems weren't ongoing, of course, wounds as massive as that would take a long time to actually heal and let matters return to a more natural equilibrium. When the wounds are being continually aggravated as they are, said healing is slowed or worse.

In a somewhat different direction, when a person or group espouses some principle only when they think that invoking it will help them, there's something to be said about whether others have any reason to treat that as actually being sincere. Even more so when said group shows with their actions that principle after principle that they claimed to value are discardable at the drop of a hat.
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Maybe stop seeing people as members of racial groups? Why punish people now because they happen to have the same skin hue as someone who did supposed wrong in the past? Goodness, if we do the "historial impact" thing, eveyone can have grievences against everyone else. And a lot of those grievances are madeup BS. That's a terrible way to go.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
What era were these films and TV from? There was absolutely segregation up until the 60s, and there was a lot of entrenched discrimination to overcome - not all of it is entirely gone.

On the other hand, oh great and noble Aussie... how are your indigenous people doing? Fully fair representation and no discrimination, right? No problems, no unequal treatment ever, right? Right?
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I was not making any claims about Australia not being racist. It was totally racist. I was making an observation about 'common sense' and societal norms.
 
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