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Does the Shroud of Turin Show Expected Elongation of the Head in 2D?"

Photography was invented in the 19th century, too late for the forger to know about.
That presumes the intent of the forger was to create a negative image such as would be discovered by photographic means.

My perfunctory "no" has more to do with the bellwether fallacy: the notion that one data point should decide the entirety of a complex question with many evidentiary points of inquiry.
 
No, but I'd still like an answer to the questions I asked. This free-form fantasy seems to allude to the topics my question covered, but simply spins the conspiracy theory deeper without providing much of an answer.

Let's go one question at a time. What is your evidence that the Archbishop of Turin switched the fibers?
The first part is that the samples of the shroud show heterogeneity, but the control samples do not. I am repeating myself here.

Only Tite and the archbishop were in the room where the samples were packaged for shipment to the labs.

That fact is in the radiocarbon dating paper.
 
That presumes the intent of the forger was to create a negative image such as would be discovered by photographic means.

My perfunctory "no" has more to do with the bellwether fallacy: the notion that one data point should decide the entirety of a complex question with many evidentiary points of inquiry.
It just shows that if it was a forgery, it was not a painting.

And yes, there are many evidentiary points of inquiry that show it was not a medieval forgery.
 
The first part is that the samples of the shroud show heterogeneity, but the control samples do not. I am repeating myself here.
Yes, you're repeating yourself, and you have simply repeated a statistical argument that doesn't really hold water. Nor even if we accept the claim of heterogeneity for the sake of argument does the hypothesis that the fiber samples were switched account for that. Why would switched samples necessarily display heterogeneity?

Only Tite and the archbishop were in the room where the samples were packaged for shipment to the labs.
How do you know what they did in there?

That fact is in the radiocarbon dating paper.
But it is not a fact that supports your claim for what went on the room.
 
It just shows that if it was a forgery, it was not a painting.
Non sequitur.

And yes, there are many evidentiary points of inquiry that show it was not a medieval forgery.
But your claim was that this point alone decided the issue. Do you still believe that one evidentiary point should decide the whole issue?
 
If it was genuine the arms would have been of a possible length. They aren't, therefore it's a forgery.

That's just one of the reasons it's an obvious forgery, by the way.
Laying flat on my back, I can reach the position of the man in the shroud.
 
Non sequitur.


But your claim was that this point alone decided the issue. Do you still believe that one evidentiary point should decide the whole issue?
Yes, I did state it that way, I do believe that the negative image is sufficient for the claim that it is not a forgery.

But it was not the first claim I made that the shroud is not a forgery, that was the crown of thorns being a cap of thorns.

Did you want to address that?
 
The situation calls 4 a jumprope song. I hope it's a good 1.

Free-form Nancy!
Drop yer pantsy!
Cheese n crickers!
Drop yer knickers!
I see London
But I can't
See Franz.
Come on, Jebus!
Pull down his panz!
 
Yes, I did state it that way, I do believe that the negative image is sufficient for the claim that it is not a forgery.
Then you seem to be committing the bellwether fallacy. It's important to first determine whether you intend to make a slam-dunk argument or whether we're going to be obeying rules of parsimony and consilience.

But it was not the first claim I made that the shroud is not a forgery, that was the crown of thorns being a cap of thorns.

Did you want to address that?
No, I don't want to change the subject.
 
How do you know what they did in there?


But it is not a fact that supports your claim for what went on the room.
They put the samples in the packing tubes. It is reported in the carbon dating paper.

The heterogeneity of the shroud sample is evidence that the samples were switched.
 
They put the samples in the packing tubes. It is reported in the carbon dating paper.
Yes, but you're claiming something not attested to in the paper, which is that the archbishop switched the samples. How do you know that's what he did in that room instead of merely doing what the paper claims was done?

The heterogeneity of the shroud sample is evidence that the samples were switched.
No, that just circularizes the hypothesis.
 
Then you seem to be committing the bellwether fallacy. It's important to first determine whether you intend to make a slam-dunk argument or whether we're going to be obeying rules of parsimony and consilience.


No, I don't want to change the subject.
Not the bellwether fallacy, because I have provided more than one line of evidence that the shroud is not a forgery, not limited to what knowledge a medieval forger would have.
 
Yes, but you're claiming something not attested to in the paper, which is that the archbishop switched the samples. How do you know that's what he did in that room instead of merely doing what the paper claims was done?


No, that just circularizes the hypothesis.
The switching is the conclusion, not the hypothesis.
 
Not the bellwether fallacy, because I have provided more than one line of evidence that the shroud is not a forgery, not limited to what knowledge a medieval forger would have.
The bellwether fallacy presumes the existence of other avenues of evidence, but proposes to ignore it all except for one. Either the negative image claim can be considered solely proof of authenticity, or we must factor it in with other evidence and come to a parsimonious and consilient conclusion. Pick a lane.
 
Laying flat on my back, I can reach the position of the man in the shroud.
Now pretend you're dead, i.e. relax all your muscles and let your arms fall where gravity, rather than your conscious will, dictates. Are your hands stil covering your genitals?
 
The switching is the conclusion, not the hypothesis.
The claim that the fibers were switched is the hypothesis you're offering to explain the observation that the dates do not overlap. You may not cite the apparent fact that the dates do not overlap as evidence that your hypothesis is true. That is textbook circular reasoning.
 
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Now pretend you're dead, i.e. relax all your muscles and let your arms fall where gravity, rather than your conscious will, dictates. Are your hands stil covering your genitals?

"and for boasting, “We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” But they neither killed nor crucified him—it was only made to appear so.1 Even those who argue for this ˹crucifixion˺ are in doubt. They have no knowledge whatsoever—only making assumptions. They certainly did not kill him."

The man in the shroud is not dead.
 
Are you claiming the "man in the shroud" is not dead because the Qur'an says so, or because you expect that claim to be sustained by some other evidence and argument?
 
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The claim that the fibers were switched is the hypothesis you're offering to explain the observation that the dates do not overlap. You may not cite the apparent fact that the dates do not overlap as evidence that your hypothesis is true. That is textbook circular reasoning.
No, I said the samples were switched as an answer to your question, "what do you think happened?"

I don't even need to explain why the heterogeneity of the samples invalidates the carbon 14 test.

If the carbon 14 dating fails the chi^2 test, then the results are no good.

 
Are you claiming the "man in the shroud" is not dead because the Qur'an says so, or because you expect that claim to be sustained by some other evidence and argument?
That's part of it, not sufficient, but there are other lines of evidence, do you want to change the subject, or discuss the cap of thorns.

Dead men leave no images on their burial shrouds.
 

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