Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Why are you convinced of this?
Because I know people that run the gamut of the the feminine masculinity scale. Men that are tiny, dainty effeminate and women that are anything but. I dated a girl for a short while when I was in my early twenties who probably had more testosterone coursing through her veins than me. I know I felt and thought differently when I took steroids. I have a brother who is bipolar. This I'm told is the result of a chemical imbalance. I see the way women act depending where they are in their cycle. I get moody some times almost for no reason. I don't know why.

I understand that while everyone is similar, we are also all different. Is it all learned behavior? Is it nature or nurture? Do either explain everything? I don't think so.
 
Because I know people that run the gamut of the the feminine masculinity scale. Men that are tiny, dainty effeminate and women that are anything but. I dated a girl for a short while when I was in my early twenties who probably had more testosterone coursing through her veins than me.
These show that there is a wide spectrum of male behavior and body-types and a wide spectrum of female behavior and body-types. And the testosterone claim is highly unlikely--do you mean she was more aggressive?
 
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Because I know people that run the gamut of the the feminine masculinity scale. Men that are tiny, dainty effeminate and women that are anything but. I dated a girl for a short while when I was in my early twenties who probably had more testosterone coursing through her veins than me. I know I felt and thought differently when I took steroids. I have a brother who is bipolar. This I'm told is the result of a chemical imbalance. I see the way women act depending where they are in their cycle. I get moody some times almost for no reason. I don't know why.

I understand that while everyone is similar, we are also all different. Is it all learned behavior? Is it nature or nurture? Do either explain everything? I don't think so.
Let's imagine that everything is extremely complicated and intractable. If we do that, then everything is extremely complicated and intractable.

This is the very definition of question-begging.

The point is that for all but a very tiny minority of cases, it isn't complicated or intractable at all. There is just some fake confusion to push a particular conclusion.
 
Let's imagine that everything is extremely complicated and intractable. If we do that, then everything is extremely complicated and intractable.

This is the very definition of question-begging.
No it is not. But I never said everything is complicated or intractable. But that we don't have the answers as of yet.
The point is that for all but a very tiny minority of cases, it isn't complicated or intractable at all. There is just some fake confusion to push a particular conclusion.
I think the rights of minorities are important. And only about 1 in 200 identify as trans. Thats a million to 1.5 million Americans And anywhere between 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 4500 have known intersex which is about 50,000 to 170, 000 people. Do they count?
 
You're conflating a whole bunch of things. I'll try to be comprehensive, but I also don't want to write another book.
Because I know people that run the gamut of the the feminine masculinity scale. Men that are tiny, dainty effeminate and women that are anything but.
None of that supports the idea that gender dysphoria is biologically driven. Rather, it serves as a counter to that view - that there exist many small-statured males that seem effeminate but are still quite comfortable as males contradicts your assumption. That both Prince and Grace Jones exist as male and female respectively, without any demonstrable or known dysphoria suggests that there is a wide variety of body shapes within each sex, and that there is considerable overlap in characteristics that are correlated by not driven by sex.
I dated a girl for a short while when I was in my early twenties who probably had more testosterone coursing through her veins than me.
This is highly doubtful. Like, extraordinarily unlikely. The highest rates of testosterone production in females occur in females with PCOS, and that runs in the range of 2.0 to 2.5 nMol/L. On the other side, the rate of testosterone production in normal males is 10 to 35 nMol/L. Even in transgender identified males who are taking testosterone suppressants, the rate tends to be higher than 5 nMol/L. Levels lower than that are considered unhealthy for males, as there are fairly substantial side effects.
I know I felt and thought differently when I took steroids.
Everyone feels and thinks differently when they take steroids - they're well documented to increase aggression. I don't know where you're going with this... but "I took a drug and it affected my mood" isn't a particularly convincing argument for gender dysphoria being biologically driven.
I have a brother who is bipolar. This I'm told is the result of a chemical imbalance.
I have a sibling who is bipolar. Some of it is chemical, but not all of it. Most bipolar disorder has an aspect of heritability, and is also affected by neural connectivity and the communication between different parts of the brain. It's why drug treatment is only partially effective for those with bipolar disorder, and also why cognitive behavioral therapy is often very effective.

And again... that some other unrelated psychiatric disorder has a chemical component does not support your premise.
I see the way women act depending where they are in their cycle. I get moody some times almost for no reason. I don't know why.
Estrogen absolutely increases emotional lability. But the mood swings that females experience aren't caused by estrogen alone, they're driven by the change in estrogen and progesterone levels.

Is it your conjecture that transgender identified males have more estrogen in their systems than is normal for males? This isn't supported by any science that I know of. Even when taking exogenous estrogen, transgender identified males tend to have lower overall levels of estrogen than females do during the majority of our cycle, and they do not have varying levels - it's fairly steady.
I understand that while everyone is similar, we are also all different. Is it all learned behavior? Is it nature or nurture? Do either explain everything? I don't think so.
You might find it interesting to look into how paraphilias work. Most begin at certain developmental stages before puberty, instigated by external non-congenital events, making them environmentally triggered. What I find interesting is that they act like addiction, in that the more a paraphilia is fed, the stronger it becomes.

Why do I mention this, you might wonder? Well, because transvestitism is classed as a paraphilia, even in the most recent versions of DSM. And autogynephilia is a subset of transvestic paraphilias. And a rather large number of transgender identified males exhibit the markers of autogynephilia. Not all, certainly. But many.
 
These show that there is a wide spectrum of male behavior and body-types and a wide spectrum of female behavior and body-types. And the testosterone claim is highly unlikely--do you mean she was more aggressive?
Yes and there are biological reasons for all of that. The girl was more assertive than most females or most men for that matter. She was muscular with more obvious facial hair than most females.
 
Why? Because you're not comfortable with your feminine side? You're all man and don't let anyone suggest otherwise?
Imagine a doctor has just delivered a baby. In the world according to you...

Doctor: Congratulations, you have a healthy, er, uh, child!
Mother: Is it a boy or a girl?
Doctor: Er, uh, they have a penis.
Mother: A boy!
Doctor: No, a penis doesn't mean they're a boy. Whether they're a boy or girl is an arbitrary determination.

Arbitrary!? WTF. The degree to which you're divorced from reality is mind-boggling.
 
Imagine a doctor has just delivered a baby. In the world according to you...

Doctor: Congratulations, you have a healthy, er, uh, child!
Mother: Is it a boy or a girl?
Doctor: Er, uh, they have a penis.
Mother: A boy!
Doctor: No, a penis doesn't mean they're a boy. Whether they're a boy or girl is an arbitrary determination.

Arbitrary!? WTF. The degree to which you're divorced from reality is mind-boggling.
And later when it's discovered they have a uterus and XX chromosomes?
 
What does that mean? Biologist will say that there is multiple criteria in determining sex. And that criteria can and sometimes does contradict.
The criteria are irrelevant. The end result is all that matters - male or female

Let's say you have male genitalia but for some reason your body doesn't produce expected levels of testosterone and an overabundance of estrogen. Those are typically understood to be sex hormones. Are you going to feel like a male or a female?
You're just trying throw as much feces at the wall as you can in the hope that some of it will stick


Is that pretending?
If the individual in question has lived all of his life as a man, and suddenly decides he's got girly feels and want to Self ID as a women, despite the fact that he has a schlong and a ball-sack, then yes, he is pretending!
 
My point with the question is I'm convinced that there is often if not most of the time some underlying biological condition that causes a male to identify as a female or a female to identify as a male. That it isn't simply a mental issue that needs to be fixed.
Yeah, there's a biological condition underlying paranoid schizophrenia, too. That doesn't mean gangstalking is real, and that we need to help targeted individuals stay safe from their tormentors.

Maybe there's biological underlayment to Munchausen's by proxy. That doesn't mean the victims are actually sick and need the attention of their caretaker.
 
My point with the question is I'm convinced that there is often if not most of the time some underlying biological condition that causes a male to identify as a female or a female to identify as a male. That it isn't simply a mental issue that needs to be fixed.
Perhaps you can tell us what "underlying biological condition" makes someone who has a schlong and a ball-sack, has been brought up a male, and spent all his life as a male, to suddeny decide they have girly feels.... and I expect you support that with evidence (such as the name of this "underlying biological condition" - just not your personal gut feeling.
 
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Because I know people that run the gamut of the the feminine masculinity scale. Men that are tiny, dainty effeminate and women that are anything but. I dated a girl for a short while when I was in my early twenties who probably had more testosterone coursing through her veins than me. I know I felt and thought differently when I took steroids. I have a brother who is bipolar. This I'm told is the result of a chemical imbalance. I see the way women act depending where they are in their cycle. I get moody some times almost for no reason. I don't know why.

I understand that while everyone is similar, we are also all different. Is it all learned behavior? Is it nature or nurture? Do either explain everything? I don't think so.
You really need to take a look at testosterone levels in adult men and women. It's literally impossible for your girlfriend to have had anything close to your testosterone level. Not unless she was on the East German swim team.
 
I was pretty proud of that one - I'm not a particularly clever person, so I really enjoy my once-a-year successes.

I think that some gender dysphoria is a mental illness, in exactly the same way that anorexia is a mental illness, and so is body integrity identity disorder. Some I think is a coping mechanism, a way to flee from trauma enacted on the body by blaming the body instead of the trauma.

Gender dysphoria is a symptom, not a diagnosis. And just like other symptoms, it can be expressed as a result of several different underlying causes. Many illnesses can express as a fever, fever is a symptom. And while most fevers are caused by bacterial or viral infection, they can also result from fungal infections, some auto-immune disorders, or cancers.
Schizophrenia is a mental illness
Anorexia nervosa is a mental illness
Bulemia is a mental illness
Bipolar affective disorder is a mental illness
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder is a mental illness
Depression is a mental illness
Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness

Everything else get treatment... the last one gets celbrated! :(
 
What does that mean? Biologist will say that there is multiple criteria in determining sex. And that criteria can and sometimes does contradict. Let's say you have male genitalia but for some reason your body doesn't produce expected levels of testosterone and an overabundance of estrogen. Those are typically understood to be sex hormones. Are you going to feel like a male or a female? Is that pretending?
False - as is the notion that we start off as female - see my posts here and here. The "we all start off as female" and "there's no one way to define sex" and use of disorders of sexual development have only recently caught on among some folks as they think it's a way to defend trans-folks. On the latter you're conflating inarguably deleterious mutations with benign/neutral variation.
 
0.018% of babies are hermaphrodites. Whereas you posted this abject nonsense upthread ...

"We can put a person into box, but few of us fit perfectly"

99.8% doesn't translate to "few" except in the minds of fact-free ideologues.
99.8 percent aren't intersex. So what?
 
I've always been amazed at the insecurities of people. The desperation to maintain at least one group that they can crap on and maintain being socially acceptable is an interesting phenomenon.
 
I've always been amazed at the insecurities of people. The desperation to maintain at least one group that they can crap on and maintain being socially acceptable is an interesting phenomenon.
Counterpoint: There are always a few groups that really do need to be crapped on, for the good of society.

Anti-science, anti-women, homophobic trans rights extremists are pretty near the top of my list of such groups. They're not even good for people who have gender dysphoria and are seeking social acceptance.
 

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