• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Strict biological definitions of male/female

Let's not forget that the excesses of some of the trans-activists led to/fostered this confusion about sex (including that we're all conceived as female, that some can change sex, that sex is assigned at birth, that folks with DSDs are between the sexes, that the brain can be a different sex than the body, etc.). Yes, on the right there are bible-thumpers, and/or those would use these issues against LGB folks as well, but we on the left have handed them this - either by endorsing it or not speaking up against it. Similar question as to put to d4m10n above - how would you word/alter the EO?
ETA - also note that we're talking about sex, not gender
I would rip it to pieces and burn it. It has nothing to do with science or social benefit whatsoever. It's an ignorant, vile piece of work, written by vile people, for their vile emperor. Then kick them in the balls for a week for good measure.
 
I would rip it to pieces and burn it. It has nothing to do with science or social benefit whatsoever. It's an ignorant, vile piece of work, written by vile people, for their vile emperor. Then kick them in the balls for a week for good measure.
LoL. Striking your colours as a skeptic and raising your real ones as a transactivist and science-denier?

Trump ‘gender ideology’ executive orders seek to deny existence of trans people and end DEI


One of the planned orders deals with gender, holding that there are two immutable sexes, male and female, defined by whether an individual is born with eggs or sperm, officials told The Associated Press. ....

This definition is at odds both with the lived experience of the estimated nearly 2 million people who are trans in America, as well as the determinations of expert groups like the American Medical Association, which holds that gender identity exists along a spectrum, rather than an immutable male-female binary.

"lived experience"? 🙄 What a flaming joke.
 
Would you please make the argument, rather than implying it with questions (e.g. I feel the executive order is flawed in its definition of sex, which has potential impact on people with specific genetic disorders...)?
My argument is simple; any EO purporting to define sex needs to deal with the possibility of intersex conditions, especially if it repeals federal guidance about how to treat people with those conditions.

Completely ignoring them is a form of science denialism which skeptics ought to oppose for fairly obvious reasons.
 
Last edited:
My argument is simple; any EO purporting to define sex needs to deal with the possibility of intersex conditions, especially if it repeals federal guidance about how to treat people with those conditions.

Completely ignoring them is a form of science denialism which skeptics ought to oppose for fairly obvious reasons.
I agree. Though "intersex" is a misnomer - they are disorders, And there is no coherent use of the term (intersex) that I've seen. Even the term DSD is muddied, as cystic fibrosis often results in males lacking a vas deferens - a clear abnormality of sexual development, but it's not considered a DSD - that's why I put "specific genetic disorders" in my example. I do think HIPAA rules and early DX will take care of a lot these concerns, but there will edge cases - e.g. the Chinese boy I mentioned in my last post. Moreover, some trans-activists claim that they are "intersex" as their "brain sex" and actual sex differ.
 
Last edited:

There seems to be an error there (haven't read it in detail) which is corrected here.

Thanks muchly. I've only skimmed her second tweet, but this concluding point looks rather "problematic":

But some will argue, well little girls don’t produce sex cells. But the point is that their reproductive system is designed around producing large sex cells.
But the biological definitions say diddly-squat about "designed around". It's all about producing them right now. Something that even PZ Myers gets:


Someone with a twitter account might ask PZ about that point, whether he stands by it or not. Likewise about Jerry Coyne and the biologists at Wiley Online:


Another reason for the wide-spread misconception about the biological sex is the notion that it is a condition, while in reality it may be a life-history stage. For instance, a mammalian embryo with heterozygous sex chromosomes (XY-setup) is not reproductively competent, as it does not produce gametes of any size. Thus, strictly speaking it does not have any biological sex, yet. [my emphasis]
 
Last edited:
I would rip it to pieces and burn it. It has nothing to do with science or social benefit whatsoever. It's an ignorant, vile piece of work, written by vile people, for their vile emperor. Then kick them in the balls for a week for good measure.
I suspect that you're correct that the people writing are likely vile. But your answer is... not good. Again - this issue was handed to them by folks on the left. Women and girls are oppressed/discriminated against on the basis of their being female, and the Dems lost sight of that - at least officially. Another impact is the kind of claims I mentioned weakened peoples belief that the Dems are the party of science. When I was a young scientist, I heard the phrase, "the right hates science when it goes against their interpretation of the bible, and the left when it conflicts with accepted hippie wisdom". At that point, the only example I could think of for the latter was the anti-vax stance of some. Now, however, there are a few - and the examples to do with sex I mentioned above are prominent among them.

You may want to answer in the "Transwomen are not Women" thread, but I don't see how you maintain female only spaces, activities in the face of the activism without some pushback and using the proper definition of female.
 
I suspect that you're correct that the people writing are likely vile. But your answer is... not good. Again - this issue was handed to them by folks on the left. Women and girls are oppressed/discriminated against on the basis of their being female, and the Dems lost sight of that - at least officially. Another impact is the kind of claims I mentioned weakened peoples belief that the Dems are the party of science. When I was a young scientist, I heard the phrase, "the right hates science when it goes against their interpretation of the bible, and the left when it conflicts with accepted hippie wisdom". At that point, the only example I could think of for the latter was the anti-vax stance of some. Now, however, there are a few - and the examples to do with sex I mentioned above are prominent among them.

You may want to answer in the "Transwomen are not Women" thread, but I don't see how you maintain female only spaces, activities in the face of the activism without some pushback and using the proper definition of female.
Governments should not interfere with the work of people who are FAR better informed of the science these holy-rollers desire to regulate unnecessarily. That goes for the dip-◊◊◊◊ right and left of politics. I have no particular axe to grind in the trans debate. Yesterday, opinion was one way, today another, tomorrow something could easily different. In my view, as long as ailing people receive the care they need, that's the result I would prefer. The sole intention of this EO is to cynically and cruelly deny that service to a small segment of US society just because they think they can.
 
Last edited:
Yesterday, opinion was one way, today another, tomorrow something could easily different. In my view, as long as ailing people receive the care they need, that's the result I would prefer. The sole intention of this EO is to cynically and cruelly deny that service to a small segment of US society just because they think they can.

What service will be denied to them?
 
I suspect that you're correct that the people writing are likely vile.
"vile" seems somewhat "over the top". Almost as if the author had a "particular axe to grind in the trans debate".

But you may wish to take a gander at something of a bio on the author, May Mailman -- certainly doesn't look like a particularly "vile" person to me:


And her bio on The Federalist web page:

May Mailman is the director of Independent Women’s Law Center. May is a former legal advisor to President Donald J. Trump, where she advised on a wide range of policies including healthcare, immigration, and social issues. While in the White House, she also worked in the office of the Chief of Staff and the Staff Secretary’s office. After the White House, May was Deputy Solicitor General for the State of Ohio and Vice President at Restoring Integrity and Trust in Elections (RITE). Prior to entering public service, May practiced litigation in Denver. Earlier in her career, she taught sixth grade in Kansas City through Teach for America. May received a B.S. in Journalism from the University of Kansas. She also earned her J.D. from Harvard Law School, where she served as President of the Federalist Society. May lives near Cleveland with her husband David and two daughters.

But you might note this observation by Mailman from the Dansky paper which seems the crux of the problem which she is clearly making some effort to address:

Too many people use language uncritically and it has resulted in the erasure of women. This is what Independent Women and feminist partners have been telling state legislatures for a few years now.

Though if y'all want "vile" you might take a look at this "rogue's gallery" of transactivists, though "thugs and psychotics" may be more accurate:


When I was a young scientist, I heard the phrase, "the right hates science when it goes against their interpretation of the bible, and the left when it conflicts with accepted hippie wisdom". At that point, the only example I could think of for the latter was the anti-vax stance of some. Now, however, there are a few - and the examples to do with sex I mentioned above are prominent among them.
👍🙂 ICYMI, you might be "amused" by this old tweet on the topic from Steven Pinker:


"the cultural Left seems to be trying to out-stupid the Right (impossible, but they're trying)."

Seems like the Left has succeeded in that objective, and well beyond Biden's and Kamala Harris' wildest dreams ...

You may want to answer in the "Transwomen are not Women" thread, but I don't see how you maintain female only spaces, activities in the face of the activism without some pushback and using the proper definition of female.
Aye, there's the rub ...

Which IS that "proper definition"? The folk biology ones that disconnect the term from actual reproductive abilities? Ones from the Kindergarten Cop movie based only on genitalia? Or the strict ones endorsed by any number of reputable biological journals, encyclopedias, and dictionaries that make those reproductive abilities into the sine qua non for sex category membership?
 
"Ailing people receiving the care they need", maybe? A bit thin on the details.
This EO is a precursor to the US government "unpersoning" trans people - trying to insist they don't exist because it makes a couple of the bible-bashing hotheads feel a bit icky. So the answer is "all services, but especially health care as needed".
 
"Ailing people receiving the care they need", maybe? A bit thin on the details.
👍 Indeed. Though a bit of an understatement. Reading between the lines or just connecting the dots, that "care" seems to often boil down into turning dysphoric and autistic children into sexless eunuchs. Some "parents" seem unclear on the concept of a "duty of care":


Memes_Parenting_Transgenderism_1A.jpg
 
This EO is a precursor to the US government "unpersoning" trans people - trying to insist they don't exist because it makes a couple of the bible-bashing hotheads feel a bit icky. So the answer is "all services, but especially health care as needed".

I just reread the EO; I'm not finding the passages you're referring to.
 
I just reread the EO; I'm not finding the passages you're referring to.
They're not in there because, as I said, this is a precursor. Once they can unperson people by denying they even exist, lots of discrimination follows. This is like changing the value of a "black" person back to being three fifths of a white man. But in this case, it is denying their existence entirely.
 

Back
Top Bottom