Merged Strict biological definitions of male/female

d4m10n said:
None of that matters to the EO if you cannot tell at the moment of conception.
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Great. We've confirmed that the EO has a line it that nitpicky people can latch onto and pretend like it doesn't make sense. More or less, you're saying "you used then when you should have used than and so your entire sentence is incomprehensible" even though it's clearly comprehensible enough for you to have figured out with word should have been there. :rolleyes:

Can we move on from this?
 
d4m10n said:
Do you think the EO from the current American administration makes sense with regard to AIS individuals?
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I think the EO makes sense with respect to 99.99999% of Americans, and that reasonable exceptions will be made for those extraordinarily few people for whom it might not.

Allow me to turn your question around: Do you think it makes sense to give males carte blanche access to female spaces and sports because somewhere one of them might possibly be AIS?
 
Emily's Cat said:
Do you think it makes sense to give males carte blanche access to female spaces and sports because somewhere one of them might possibly be AIS?
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Of course not!

Do you think it's okay to be ◊◊◊◊◊◊ to AIS individuals because of those who would freely abuse self-i.d. laws?
 
Emily's Cat said:
We can establish that your pursuit of completely unassailable perfectionism is more important than some really basic rights and protections for females.
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Treating people with intersex conditions as if they actually exist is not unassailable perfectionism.

Don't be silly. :p
 
Emily's Cat said:
Genotype exists at conception. Genotype is the entire package of genetic material in the DNA. Karyotype is also present at conception, that's the chromosomal complement that guides development from the moment the sperm breaches the egg wall. Karyotype is a subset of genotype.

Phenotype develops during gestation, and sexual differentiation occurs around the 6th week. It's actually a pretty early development, and a really critical process. If sexual differentiation does NOT occur, the fetus will terminate; without differentiation it's nonviable.
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I wonder if NA thinks that sexual differentiation just happens at random and this then determines the genotype? As I said, this idea seems to be doing the rounds on social media. I have seen posts implying there is no Y chromosome until after differentiation.
 
d4m10n said:
Of course not!

Do you think it's okay to be ◊◊◊◊◊◊ to AIS individuals because of those who would freely abuse self-i.d. laws?
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Why do you think this would result in anyone being dicks to them? Genuinely, what do you think the fallout of this EO would be for PAIS vs CAIS people in application?
 
d4m10n said:
Treating people with intersex conditions as if they actually exist is not unassailable perfectionism.

Don't be silly. :p
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Treating people with DSDs as if they're actual not male or female is what's silly ;)

Nobody is suggesting they don't exist - that's the nonsense rhetoric that got us here in the first damned place. They exist. But they exist as either male or female even when it's difficult to tell without further investigation.
 
Elaedith said:
I wonder if NA thinks that sexual differentiation just happens at random and this then determines the genotype? As I said, this idea seems to be doing the rounds on social media. I have seen posts implying there is no Y chromosome until after differentiation.
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The older I get, the more convinced I am that social media is where the dumb people go to feel like they're not dumb.

Sometimes that includes me!
 
Emily's Cat said:
Why do you think this would result in anyone being dicks to them? Genuinely, what do you think the fallout of this EO would be for PAIS vs CAIS people in application?
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CAIS individuals in male federal prisons, obviously.

Didn't I already say this upthread?
 
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Emily's Cat said:
I think the EO makes sense with respect to 99.99999% of Americans, and that reasonable exceptions will be made for those extraordinarily few people for whom it might not.
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That's where I'm coming from here, although it may not be quite as many as 99.99999%. Nevertheless the fact remains, that for something like 99.98% of births, sex is correctly observed from neonatal anatomy. These people are never going to trouble the scorer here. Another group of people who will not trouble the scorer in later life are infants who are suspected of having a DSD and investigated at the time. The question will have been asked and answered before any ambiguity has arisen.

The ones who may trouble the scorer are DSDs whose existence isn't suspected until (usually) puberty. You get a girl who has not started to menstruate by, say, fifteen, and some questions start to be asked. Some of these may be 5ARD boys who weren't picked up at birth, but frankly that's going to be pretty damn rare in the USA. Others may be girls with CAIS or Swyer's. What happens when they're investigated as teenagers? Remember, this isn't an academic exercise, this is about people's lives. The actual definition of what constitutes male or female "at conception" has to be settled on. It the EO doesn't say anything about the presence or absence of a Y chromosome, or about the presence or absence of an SRY gene. It doesn't go into any detail.

I don't imagine for one second that the drafters of this order want or intend to tell CAIS or Swyer's girls that they're really male and have to start using the male bathrooms and playing on the boys' teams. I think 5ARD has the potential to be awkward, but they were probably thinking mainly about preventing the sort of abuses we've seen in athletics where these men are allowed to compete as women because of this stupid "assigned at birth" thing. It might be hard on some unrecognised 5ARD boys, but I don't know. Most of them seem to be figuring it our as they go through puberty if they're not being pressurised by an athletics authority to live a lie.

It's entirely possible to define "male at conception" as an embryo (or a zygote) which has received a functional SRY gene and the genes coding for functioning androgen receptors, and "female at conception" as one that (normally) has no functional SRY gene, or (exceptionally) lacks the genes coding for androgen receptors. Or something like that. It might not catch everyone, but you're talking penny numbers.

I think 5ARD is the awkward one, and legislation like this would help ensure these boys aren't missed as infants - if indeed they ever are in the USA. It's not good to have to take that on board as a young teenager, and the way to ensure that doesn't happen is to be vigilant and diagnose them in infancy.
 
d4m10n said:
CAIS individuals in male federal prisons, obviously.

Didn't I already say this upthread?
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In the extraordinarily rare event that a CAIS person ends up in prison, I doubt anyone is going to be doing genetic testing to determine whether the entirely female looking person with no fake parts is actually for realsies a genetic female or whether they have testicles where there ovaries are along with their home-grown fallopian tubes, cervix, etc.

But hey, if you need to latch on to the spectre of CAIS ending up in a male prison, knock yourself out I guess.
 
Rolfe said:
That's where I'm coming from here, although it may not be quite as many as 99.99999%. Nevertheless the fact remains, that for something like 99.98% of births, sex is correctly observed from neonatal anatomy. These people are never going to trouble the scorer here. Another group of people who will not trouble the scorer in later life are infants who are suspected of having a DSD and investigated at the time. The question will have been asked and answered before any ambiguity has arisen.

The ones who may trouble the scorer are DSDs whose existence isn't suspected until (usually) puberty. You get a girl who has not started to menstruate by, say, fifteen, and some questions start to be asked. Some of these may be 5ARD boys who weren't picked up at birth, but frankly that's going to be pretty damn rare in the USA. Others may be girls with CAIS or Swyer's. What happens when they're investigated as teenagers? Remember, this isn't an academic exercise, this is about people's lives. The actual definition of what constitutes male or female "at conception" has to be settled on. It the EO doesn't say anything about the presence or absence of a Y chromosome, or about the presence or absence of an SRY gene. It doesn't go into any detail.

I don't imagine for one second that the drafters of this order want or intend to tell CAIS or Swyer's girls that they're really male and have to start using the male bathrooms and playing on the boys' teams. I think 5ARD has the potential to be awkward, but they were probably thinking mainly about preventing the sort of abuses we've seen in athletics where these men are allowed to compete as women because of this stupid "assigned at birth" thing. It might be hard on some unrecognised 5ARD boys, but I don't know. Most of them seem to be figuring it our as they go through puberty if they're not being pressurised by an athletics authority to live a lie.

It's entirely possible to define "male at conception" as an embryo (or a zygote) which has received a functional SRY gene and the genes coding for functioning androgen receptors, and "female at conception" as one that (normally) has no functional SRY gene, or (exceptionally) lacks the genes coding for androgen receptors. Or something like that. It might not catch everyone, but you're talking penny numbers.

I think 5ARD is the awkward one, and legislation like this would help ensure these boys aren't missed as infants - if indeed they ever are in the USA. It's not good to have to take that on board as a young teenager, and the way to ensure that doesn't happen is to be vigilant and diagnose them in infancy.
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At this point, I'm just plain tired. We're once again at a point where female rights, safety, and dignity are being happily hand-waved away in preference of rules-lawyering the every loving ◊◊◊◊ out of exceptionally rare cases and what if scenarios that might hypothetically some day happen. It's exhausting.
 
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