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Merged Strict biological definitions of male/female

Steersman said:
Your "CAIS women" are only "women" by your apparent defacto criterion for "woman" which is apparently "vagina-haver". Despite them having XY karyotypes and internal but non-functional testicles.
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When someone uses the term "reproductive phenotype" what does that mean to you? I'm not being snarky - this is a major disconnect between pretty much everyone in this thread and you. Nearly all of us have a shared understanding of what that means, even if we might have some slight discrepancies around the edges. You seem to take an entirely different approach, and to date I honestly don't know what you think a phenotype is in generally, let alone a reproductive phenotype.
 
d4m10n said:
Why are you answering a question about conception with a link about what happens several weeks later? Early "fetal genitalia" which "are the same and are phenotypically female" aren't something which happens at conception, so they aren't relevant to the criteria laid out by the EO.
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Now you are just being deliberately dense.
 
d4m10n said:
Are you suggesting that the "sex that produces the large reproductive cell" may sensibly include rare cases of individuals who are genetically predetermined never to produce oocytes?
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We've been through this before... and at one point in time you were in the same camp that Rolfe and I and Louden and Pixel and most of the other posters in this thread are in. I don't know when you changed lanes, but it's clear that you did.

Sex is defined based on the type or reproductive phenotype that the specimen has. It's not based on active production of gametes, nor is it actually defined based on the type of gonadal tissue in place. It's based on the phenotype - because all anisogamous species have evolved two distinct reproductive phenotypes. One of those phenotypes is based around the anatomical structures that support the production of large gametes - regardless of whether those gametes actually get produced or not. The other phenotype evolved to support the production of small gametes - regardless of whether those gametes actually get produced.

An individual of any mammalian species who has the anatomical structures that evolved to support the production of eggs is female. That means that a human who has all of the internal reproductive structures and external genitals that evolved for support of eggs is female - even if their gonads are made of testicular tissue, even if they those gonads are undifferentiated ovotestis or streak gonads.

It also means that in those exceptionally rare occasions where the anatomical structures are incomplete or mixed, some degree of judgement comes into play. So when you end get someone who has truncated fallopian tubes and a small undeveloped uterus inside of an otherwise fully formed male reproductive phenotype they end up being classed as male - because the have ALL of the male and only a few small or incomplete female bits. When you get someone with fully formed fallopian tubes, follicles, uterus, cervix, and vagina who has testicular tissue where their ovaries would normally be and does not produce live sperm, they get classed as female.

Because it's the phenotype that defines sex.
 
Planigale said:
i have a friend in this position, she looked at a womb transplant so she could have a child with her husband (it would have meant egg donation from her sister and womb donation from her mother, both of whom were willing to give her the chance to have her husband's child).
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I sincerely hope your friend has decided against this. Womb transplants might sound reasonable, but they are far far more complex than many people seem to think. There have been only a very few that have been done that didn't result in the patient's death - and those few were transplants into entirely karyotypical females.
 
d4m10n said:
I said "CAIS" upthread, specifying this to be the case.

All true; all completely irrelevant given the criteria from the EO which specifies sex as of conception with no reference to phenotype.

At conception, the conceptus would be known to "produce no gametes" if we somehow had complete genetic information at the time.

Here are the two sexes from the EO:

(d) “Female” means a person belonging, at conception, to the sex that produces the large reproductive cell.​
​
(e) “Male” means a person belonging, at conception, to the sex thatproduces the small reproductive cell.​

An individual genetically predetermined at conception to produce neither large gametes nor small gametes cannot fit into either category. It is wholesome and righteous that you want to put CAIS people in the female category, but it does not comport with this legal guidance if interpreted straightforwardly with no attempt to retcon the text to make sense for intersex individuals, who are completely ignored.
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You're taking Steersman's approach here, and you're skipping the highlighted bit.

Sex isn't defined based on production of gametes, it's based on reproductive phenotype. CAIS individuals have a female phenotype. They have no penis, no vas deferens, no prostate, no spermical vesicles, no scrotum. Every part of their reproductive anatomy is female in structure and function - they simply have nonfunctional testicular tissue where their ovaries should be.

This does NOT hold true for PAIS though - as they almost always have a predominance of male reproductive structures.
 
Norman Alexander said:
As noted elsewhere on this forum, all humans are female at conception. Sexual differentiation occurs later in the gestation process. So all Americans are now being designated as women.

Which will come as a surprise to many MAGAnuts.
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The bolded bit is false. At conception, human fetuses are undifferentiated. The mullerian ends up being the default developmental pathway, because an active SRY gene and a functioning receptor is required to trigger the wolffian process.
 
Emily's Cat said:
99.998% of humans have completely unambiguous reproductive systems, and their sex has been accurately noted during a prenatal ultrasound.
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Prenatal ultrasound is a bit of a cheat, though, since the EO defines sex at conception.
Emily's Cat said:
There's no good argument that somehow we need to do expensive genetic testing on everyone to figure out their sex.
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If the legal guidance says that only genotype matters, then you'll need to obtain it whenever some controversy arises.
 
d4m10n said:
Prenatal ultrasound is a bit of a cheat, though, since the EO defines sex at conception.

If the legal guidance says that only genotype matters, then you'll need to obtain it whenever some controversy arises.
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I think that's what I have been saying. Glad you are catching on. ;)

The author(s) of the EO have clearly not done their research properly. If they meant genotype, that means after differentiation, which is over a month after conception. So they should have specified that more clearly. But the words "genotype expressed after sexual differentiation" doesn't have the same biblical ring to it in the document as "AT CONCEPTION!"
 
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Norman Alexander said:
Forget about anything after conception. There's no argument there. Because Trump's legislation refers to "at conception". And at conception, we humans are all female. So if your legally assigned US gender is what you are at conception, you are therefore all women. Congratulations, madam!
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So it's your contention that the Executive Order means that all Americans are now women. What effect do you think this will have on the law and its implementation?
 
Matthew Best said:
So it's your contention that the Executive Order means that all Americans are now women. What effect do you think this will have on the law and its implementation?
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As they say when pitching a TV series in Hollywood, hilarity ensues.
  • Nobody can use male bathrooms.
  • Everybody can use female bathrooms.
  • Nobody can play male sports.
  • Everybody can play female sports.
  • Exclusive men's clubs will now have all women members.
  • Nobody can have abortions.
  • And so on.
 
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Norman Alexander said:
And phenotype female.
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The genotype–phenotype distinctionWP was invented to put the genetic information on one side and how it is expressed on the other. At conception, the information we have is basically all genotype since the genetic information hasn't done much of anything yet to create an organism with observable morphology, development, and behavior.
 
d4m10n said:
The genotype–phenotype distinctionWP was invented to put the genetic information on one side and how it is expressed on the other. At conception, the information we have is basically all phenotype since the genes haven't done anything yet.
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Nonsense. The genetic information is all there, at conception.
 
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