Merged Strict biological definitions of male/female

[Steersman]

At this point, I've decided you don't know what a phenotype is. And you're so wrapped up in your bespoke definition that you're unwilling to even try to learn. You are now arguing from belief.

You seem to have an affinity for "bespoke" -- a new "word-of-the-day" for you? Though not to say that it doesn't have some utility which I hadn't been aware of -- learn something new every day:

Etymology​

In sense “custom-made”, 1755, from earlier bespoken (c. 1600), form of bespeak, in sense “arrange beforehand” (1580s), a prefixed variant of speak; compare order, made-to-order.

bespoke - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

But still rather a stretch to argue that my "interpretation" is "tailor-made". You might actually try reading this article on the topic:

In genetics, the phenotype (from Ancient Greek φαίνω (phaínō) 'to appear, show' and τύπος (túpos) 'mark, type') is the set of observable characteristics or traits of an organism. The term covers the organism's morphology (physical form and structure), its developmental processes, its biochemical and physiological properties, its behavior, and the products of behavior. .... Either way, the term phenotype includes inherent traits or characteristics that are observable or traits that can be made visible by some technical procedure. .... Behaviors and their consequences are also phenotypes, since behaviors are observable characteristics. Behavioral phenotypes include cognitive, personality, and behavioral patterns. ....

Phenotype - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The phenotype of a juvenile -- or of an embryo -- is clearly not the same phenotype of an adult. Which is why one has to qualify and describe which phenotype is of relevance or is definitive -- e.g., the phenotype that currently produces gametes, not the one that might eventually produce them -- embryos or the prepubescent -- or might have produced them in the past. HTH ...

 

[Emily's Cat]

The phenotype of a juvenile -- or of an embryo -- is clearly not the same phenotype of an adult. Which is why one has to qualify and describe which phenotype is of relevance or is definitive -- e.g., the phenotype that currently produces gametes, not the one that might eventually produce them -- embryos or the prepubescent -- or might have produced them in the past.

By your logic, an infant who hasn't yet learned to walk is legless.

 

[Matthew Best]

If you're discussing with Steersman, legless is definitely the way to be.

 

[Steersman]

If you're discussing with Steersman, legless is definitely the way to be.

"Extremely drunk"? A British colloquialism by the look of it.

Though "footless" seems to be the way most of my interlocutors actually are ...

lacking foundation : unsubstantial

Definition of FOOTLESS

having no feet; lacking foundation : unsubstantial; stupid, inept… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

But I suppose both might be applicable ...

 

[Steersman]

By your logic, an infant who hasn't yet learned to walk is legless.

The "set of observable characteristics or traits" -- AKA phenotype -- of a typical newborn is clearly different from someone of 50 who lost their legs in an accident.

At least try thinking that constructions like "X is the phenotype that exhibits properties A, B, & C" is just equating or defining the entity X as the body that currently exhibits those properties.

An embryo is the phenotype that has undifferentiated reproductive structures;
A polydactyl is the phenotype that has extra fingers or toes;
An oligodactyl is the phenotype that has fewer than the typical number of fingers or toes;
A teenager is the phenotype that is between the ages of 13 and 19 inclusive.

Polydactyly - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Oligodactyly - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"oh why can't the English learn to speak" ...

 

[smartcooky]

By your logic, an infant who hasn't yet learned to walk is legless.

If you're discussing with Steersman, legless is definitely the way to be.

Indeed. It appears that Steersman's mind is bolted shut, and the nuts are welded in place. He's locked into a spiral of bespoke, personal, unique-to-him definitions, a spiral of his own making. Its entire response set involves link spamming the same flawed sources over and over. It isn't possible to have an honest debate with someone who behaves like that.... its why I no longer engage....

 

[Rolfe]

And in Gaelic a "deugaire" (the equivalent of a teenager) is anyone aged 11 to 19 inclusive. So what?

 

[Steersman]

And in Gaelic a "deugaire" (the equivalent of a teenager) is anyone aged 11 to 19 inclusive. So what?

So you're not paying attention -- being charitable. The point is the format of the statement:

"An embryo is the phenotype that has undifferentiated reproductive structures"

Four examples were given including one referencing "teenager". It is totally immaterial, a red herring, whether another language uses a different word for about the same age range.

 

[Steersman]

He's locked into a spiral of bespoke, personal, unique-to-him definitions, a spiral of his own making.

"Liar, liar, pants on fire."

I've shown you and others here, dozens of times in fact, various quotes of many reputable biologists -- like Jerry Coyne, PZ Myers, and the 3 authors of the Wiley Online Library article -- who endorse the concept of sexless because there's no functional gonads.

And I've likewise shown you that that is the defacto interpretation in the description of many other species including clownfish, alligators, and various bees and ants.

its why I no longer engage....

You "no longer engage" because you know you don't have a leg to stand on. And don't have enough intellectual honesty to admit it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Its entire response set involves link spamming the same flawed sources over and over.

... about two-thirds of which are links to their own personal blogs and twitter posts, literally referencing themself as if they were an expert.

 

[angrysoba]

Not watched it yet, but it looks like the video of Steve Novella's talk is out...

 

[Elaedith]

Not watched it yet, but it looks like the video of Steve Novella's talk is out...

Yes, it's already been posted under the 'evidence-based podcasts' forum. Perhaps we should go there for a critical discussion, because 'sex is a bimodal spectrum' fans won't come here into this den of blasphemy.

 

[jt512]

Interview yesterday of Jerry Coyne by Piers Morgan, followed by a debate in which Brianna Wu eviscerates radical trans activist.

 

[smartcooky]

Interview yesterday of Jerry Coyne by Piers Morgan, followed by a debate in which Brianna Wu eviscerates radical trans activist.

Eviscerates her/him/it? That wasn't just an evisceration, that was closer to a ritual disembowel with a blunt object.

BriannWu complaining that they don't have adults leading their movement, and that the TRAs are making them look stupid really does comport with what we have been saying here, - that in general, transpeople (including the few that I know personally) have had enough of the complete BS being peddled by radical transgender ideologues.


@Steersman often quotes this Professor Coyne as being an advocate for his bat-**** crazy idea that prepubescent humans, sterile males, and post-menopausal women are sexless - neither male nor female. I wish to call his attention to 15:04 in the video

Prof. Coyne: "There's so many things wrong with what's said. First of all, sex IS binary - we have males and females, they're defined by the type of gametes they produce - sperm versus eggs, or the reproductive apparatus that produce sperm or eggs - if you're a sterile male, you're still a male"

Oh dear old chap. Looks like your Professor Coyne has left the building!!

 

[Rolfe]

Brianna Wu is on a carefully planned mission to have certain vetted and approved males (including him of course) legally permitted to use female-only spaces - just not those horrible people who don't try to pass. Thus the appearance of being on the gender-critical side. It's Debbie Hayton all over again. It's just a different way of gaining acceptance into women's spaces, by appearing to be on the side of women. Don't fall for it.

 

[smartcooky]

Brianna Wu is on a carefully planned mission to have certain vetted and approved males (including him of course) legally permitted to use female-only spaces - just not those horrible people who don't try to pass. Thus the appearance of being on the gender-critical side. It's Debbie Hayton all over again. It's just a different way of gaining acceptance into women's spaces, by appearing to be on the side of women. Don't fall for it.

True, but he still disemboweled the TRA with considerable brutality.

What I would ask is, is he trying to return to the "good old days" when women routinely and quietly accepted/tolerated transvestites into their spaces? If that is all he is trying to achieve, then I could be convinced that might be OK. If it is more than that, well then I would question his motives.

 

[Rolfe]

I think that genie is out of the bottle and unlikely to go back in. Women routinely and quietly tolerated cross-dressing men because on the whole we didn't know what they were like. We know now.

 

[Rolfe]

We've got another live one on Twitter, a woman who is asserting that everyone with a Y chromosome is male and everyone without is female, insisting that Swyer's women are men and DLC men are women. It's a hell of a shouting-match and I bowed out early on. It's the same bone-headed semantic argument as Steersman makes, just over a different point.

 

[jt512]

Good Morning, America! Welcome to Day 1 of the Post-Woke Era.

 

[angrysoba]

Good Morning, America! Welcome to Day 1 of the Post-Woke Era.

Not everyone lives in America, mate. Not yet.