Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

As I have said many times: when it's someone the women know and trust, they may well be fine with giving them access. That was already happening, long before TRAs started making their strident demands. The point is it's their choice to make.

Ok. How does that work in practice? Like in a public rest room or gym open to the public? Do you have some kind of clique that has a representative there at all times, allowing the "passing" transwoman in, and refusing others? That sounds problematic on a few levels.

 

[Thermal]

The problem with this is the false promise that's at the heart of this movement (& I think is often overlooked). Some same-sex attracted males like the idea of being a heterosexual woman better than a gay man, but (broadly speaking) they're never going to be accepted as such when looking for long-term partners.

You would think it's easier for a trans woman to find a male heterosexual partner (who would find out right pronto that the trans woman is a biological male) than a gay man to find another gay man? That sounds pretty bold.

Eta: I may be misreading you, here. Are you saying someone might like the idea of being a hetero woman more than being a gay man, so chooses one over the other? Cuz I'm like 99.999% positive that it's not a choice thing, any more than your choice of being male or female or straight or gay is.

 

[Thermal]

This is a problem. How do women know what the policy of a particular establishment is? Should every venue have a prominent notice on display advising patrons of their rules? Because if not, where do we stand?

The sign on the door says Ladies, or something to indicate that, and once inside I encounter Alex Drummond or Eddie Izzard or Dustin Hoffman in full costume and makeup as Tootsie. I register a protest, and the establishment informs me that they are fully inclusive and everyone is welcome to use the facilities where they're most comfortable. It's implied that I'm a bigot and have committed a hate crime.

That's a huge concern at the moment and I have felt it myself, in a theatre where I was waiting for a friend outside the Ladies and saw a six-foot-plus dude in a skimpy red dress, high heels and makeup stride confidently (or defiantly) inside. As I wasn't actually inside at the time I ignored it, but if I had been I would have been extremely uncomfortable. But could I have relied on the theatre staff to back me up if I had objected to his presence? I doubt it, and I imagine so did the women who were inside at the time.

Without some sort of uniformity of rules, men are simply going to go where they like and women are going to be too intimidated to challenge them.

Are you generally afraid of men in any setting at all? Would no one have been around this theater rest room to help you if this person attacked (and why you assume this person of all the people you run across would attack you at all is kind of odd)?

I totally get the voyeur/exhibitionist threat in a showering kind of area. But there seems to be this undercurrent thought that a trans person should be assumed to be much more dangerous than any other bio male.

And yes, I know you posted stats that suggest trans people should be assumed to be more violent. The same could be said of black people, and I'd reject that as a reason to fear all black people too, and for the same reasons.

Seriously: why, in a presumably crowded area, would you feel threatened by an open transwoman publicly walking into a restroom and using the stall next to you?

I mean, I've been in mixed sex multi occupant public restrooms, and I admit it feels odd, especially at first, but if you are not alone (and no one around to call to for help), what exactly do you think would happen, that would be unique from a bio man just walking in? There's no lock on a multi occupant theatre restroom door, is there?

 

[Matthew Best]

But there seems to be this undercurrent thought that a trans person should be assumed to be much more dangerous than any other bio male.

How about if we change that to "as dangerous as any other bio male"?

 

[Thermal]

How about if we change that to "as dangerous as any other bio male"?

Sure. I guess. As long as the women feel equally as threatened by any bio male in any other situation, I guess it works.

 

[Paul2]

Huh. Honestly haven't seen one of them since my high schools prison style showers, built around 1960. Even my kids' college dorms had individual stalls, and all the gyms I've seen have individuals. Surprising.

And yes, 100% of the women affected would be... you know, 100% of them. I just wasn't sure how many showers and users of them we were talking about. Like, if there were a few gyms that still had prison showers, requiring them to upgrade to normal single stalls (possibly just installing privacy dividers in the existing setup) doesn't seem.like that big a deal.

Eta: although to reiterate: I don't think.its a good idea. I'm just trying to determine the realistic risk assessment. Saying 100% of women would suddenly find themselves in jeopardy seems a little off.

I have gotten an update from my wife: the women's showers are actually stalls! Who knew? Oh, they did, huh.

 

[Thermal]

I have gotten an update from my wife: the women's showers are actually stalls! Who knew? Oh, they did, huh.

I swear to you: I asked my wife about public showers, she told me to "get to work and stay off that ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ site that makes you ask me all these weird questions"

 

[Paul2]

Don't recall whether this write-up has been shared at some point in the last few years of this thread, but it's a new year so here goes:

Being Trans Is Not A Mental Illness - NeuroLogica Blog

On the current episode of the SGU, because it is pride month, we expressed our general support for the LGBTQ community. I also opined about how important it is to respect individual liberty, the freedom to simply live your authentic life as you choose, and how ironic it is that often the people...

theness.com

I'd be interested in hearing whether anyone finds Novella's take persuasive.

I thought it was a very good article but it hinges, IMHO, on the definition of mental disorder: "a lack or alternation in a function possessed by most healthy individuals that causes demonstrable harm."

The problem with that definition - as useful as it may be for professionals - is that there is no necessary connection between the organic malfunctioning of something within the mind or brain and its practical effect on the person in the real world.*

The problem this produces for lay people is that it seems incongruous that person A and B have the same brain or mind malfunction and A is in a situation in which there is no or little resulting harm or negative effect, but for B there is, yet one is mentally ill and the other is not.




*That lack of a necessary connection is why the definition has to include it explicitly. The definition implicitly acknowledges that the same internal situation in a mind or brain may produce practical effects for the person in the real world that may or may not lead to harm or negative effects for the person.

 

[smartcooky]

Since you requested feedback, I happen to already have results handy.

I haven't locked my home's doors but maybe half a dozen times in the last decade, even when leaving the continent for over a week. Never at all on a routine day or night. Anyone attempting entry will have a canine to deal with who, like our last dog, really really doesn't like strangers.

My work truck's back door lock doesn't work, so, with literally thousands in easily hockable tools and goods in reach, it goes unlocked for all but a few times per year. And during the work day, my keys and wallet are in fact on the console (in fairness, not on the dashboard).

But to your somewhat vacuous point: locking a door is an actual positive stop, preventing all but determined thieves with tools. A sign on a restroom is literally nothing to stop anyone from doing anything. Rules about who goes in are not physically preventative to a violent criminal in the way a lock is; they do zero.

That won't be the experience shared by most people. If you keep your house and vehicles unlocked, sooner or later it will come back and bite you on the arse.

Maybe women's toilets need to have guards dogs inside

Since you snipped the part of the post that addressed that directly, I'll repeat it for you: the threat of the less violent voyeur/exhibitionist is still very real, and they probably would be encouraged or discouraged by the rules or a sign (unlike a violent attacker), so that needs to be dealt with, like I said, unlike your foolish assertion that I tell the women to STFU.

Your attitude to this appears to be that womens' discomfit with the prospect of men being allowed into their safe spaces as of right, is of no import. Like biological sex, this is binary - you either support the concept of safe spaces or you don't.
If you support it, then you oppose the concept of biological men being able to selfID by fiat to gain access
If you don't support it, then you are fine with biological men having right of access to women's toilets, shelters and rape crisis centres
There is nothing in between in this debate - no grey area.
Where do you stand in this issue?

Yes, you say that every time things get thorny for you.

Bwahahaha! Thorny? Your posts are about as thorny as a Ouachita blackberry bush!

You think you pose tough questions, but mostly, you pose stupid ones - questions that have already been answered multiple times in your absence from this dicussion.

 

[Pixel42]

Ok. How does that work in practice? Like in a public rest room or gym open to the public? Do you have some kind of clique that has a representative there at all times, allowing the "passing" transwoman in, and refusing others? That sounds problematic on a few levels.

Simply knocking on the door and asking the permission of the women already present to enter would probably be sufficient; in most cases the women would already have seen the transwoman in the gym/swimming pool/pub/whatever, and would have formed an opinion of their trustworthiness. If it's somewhere the transwoman visits regularly an initial "no" might eventually become a "yes" once trust has been earned. If the transwoman has a girlfriend with them who can vouch for them that would obviously help. What would most help is if the women were confident that if they made a mistake, and someone they gave permission to enter then behaved inappropriately, they need only raise the alarm and the staff would eject the offender.

 

[Louden Wilde]

You would think it's easier for a trans woman to find a male heterosexual partner (who would find out right pronto that the trans woman is a biological male) than a gay man to find another gay man? That sounds pretty bold.

Eta: I may be misreading you, here. Are you saying someone might like the idea of being a hetero woman more than being a gay man, so chooses one over the other? Cuz I'm like 99.999% positive that it's not a choice thing, any more than your choice of being male or female or straight or gay is.

Yes - a misunderstanding. The point being that the person you know (from what you've described) is objectively a same-sex attracted male - AKA a gay man. That person apparently chooses to ID as a heterosexual woman because they prefer that identity. But they are not going to be accepted as such by heterosexual males (as it looks like you acknowledge above). This is what I mean by the false premise of the movement - it encourages people to identify as something they can't be accepted as (& implies that millions of years of selection is a prejudice that can be overcome).

As to the second part - the choice thing- I strongly suspect that this is entirely a cultural artifact -
The "wrong body" hypothesis is inherently flawed - a brain in a male body is by definition a male brain.

 

[dann]

Are you generally afraid of men in any setting at all? Would no one have been around this theater rest room to help you if this person attacked (and why you assume this person of all the people you run across would attack you at all is kind of odd)?

I totally get the voyeur/exhibitionist threat in a showering kind of area. But there seems to be this undercurrent thought that a trans person should be assumed to be much more dangerous than any other bio male.

And yes, I know you posted stats that suggest trans people should be assumed to be more violent. The same could be said of black people, and I'd reject that as a reason to fear all black people too, and for the same reasons.

Seriously: why, in a presumably crowded area, would you feel threatened by an open transwoman publicly walking into a restroom and using the stall next to you?

I mean, I've been in mixed sex multi occupant public restrooms, and I admit it feels odd, especially at first, but if you are not alone (and no one around to call to for help), what exactly do you think would happen, that would be unique from a bio man just walking in? There's no lock on a multi occupant theatre restroom door, is there?

I get it, too. Some countries are just more prudish than others.
Back in the 1980s, I visited my German ex-girlfriend in Hamburg over the weekend. One day, she was going to the local indoor swimming pool and asked me to join her. I was used to beaches being textile-free in both Denmark and Germany, but I was surprised when we went to the sauna after swimming (with bathing suits), and the sauna turned out to be textile-free and unisex. I am pretty sure that most saunas in Germany are, but I wasn't aware of that at the time.

Everything you need to know about German saunas (Lingoda, Nov 4, 2024)
Generally speaking, German saunas tend to be 'textile-free', so you should be prepared to go in the nip. You should also keep in mind that many saunas are mixed-sex spaces, however no one bats an eyelid at naked men and women sharing a sauna. Depending on where you are coming from, this kind of non-sexualized public nudity can be rather jarring, so if this does make you uncomfortable, you can always search for a single-sex sauna.
Confidence is key, though you may have to 'fake it till you make it'. Just keep in mind that no one is fixating on you the way you fixate on yourself. Around other people in the sauna, don't gawk, just keep your gaze level and blasé. You will get used to the experience quicker than you might imagine, and the etiquette will become second nature to you.

I have never been to a single-sex sauna in Germany. I didn't even know that they existed, but I assume that the author of the article knows what she is talking about. Even in international hotels in Germany, the saunas are unisex. It surprised my Danish girlfriend, a former air hostess, who had been far more hotels than I.
I know how difficult it is for Americans to grasp the concept, but the description in the quotation above captures my own experience, except that I found the German attitude relaxed and natural and didn't feel the need to 'fake it till you make it'. In fact, I find questions like this hilarious:

Is it a big problem if you get a boner in a German sauna? (Reddit)
I’m going to Germany soon and we’re probably gonna go to some spas and saunas, but I’ve heard that you’re naked in them. I’m not really used to that so I think it could happen that I get an involuntary boner.
edit: to clarify: i’m not a weirdo and wouldn’t go around ogling or being weird because that’s not how I am.

I never got an erection at a textile-free beach or a unisex sauna, and I never saw anybody else getting one. I suspect that you would have to go to one of the above-mentioned single-sex saunas to see that. I also never saw anybody "ogling or being weird." And I never saw anybody I might suspect of being a transexual. Transvestism would obviously be impossible in a textile-free sauna.

As for the public restrooms, there was another ISF thread a few years ago about that. Back then, I linked to an article by a Danish feminist demanding that all public restrooms be turned into "mixed sex multi occupant public restrooms," if I remember correctly. The only thing that surprised me about her demand was that single-sex public restrooms apparently still exist in Denmark. I don't remember seeing one in the last 20 years or so.

 

[Thermal]

I get it, too. Some countries are just more prudish than others.

Not sure if prudish is the right word, so much as... I dunno, invasive? We have gone to the little boys and girls rooms our whole lives, so seeing a woman in the bathroom I walk into feels like I'm doing something wrong.

Back in the 1980s, I visited my German ex-girlfriend in Hamburg over the weekend. One day, she was going to the local indoor swimming pool and asked me to join her. I was used to beaches being textile-free in both Denmark and Germany, but I was surprised when we went to the sauna after swimming (with bathing suits), and the sauna turned out to be textile-free and unisex. I am pretty sure that most saunas in Germany are, but I wasn't aware of that at the time.

I have never been to a single-sex sauna in Germany. I didn't even know that they existed, but I assume that the author of the article knows what she is talking about. Even in international hotels in Germany, the saunas are unisex. It surprised my Danish girlfriend, a former air hostess, who had been far more hotels than I.
I know how difficult it is for Americans to grasp the concept, but the description in the quotation above captures my own experience, except that I found the German attitude relaxed and natural and didn't feel the need to 'fake it till you make it'. In fact, I find questions like this hilarious:

I never got an erection at a textile-free beach or a unisex sauna, and I never saw anybody else getting one. I suspect that you would have to go to one of the above-mentioned single-sex saunas to see that. I also never saw anybody "ogling or being weird." And I never saw anybody I might suspect of being a transexual. Transvestism would obviously be impossible in a textile-free sauna.

Yeah, being naked around others has an initial jarring effect, then it's surprisingly quick to get used to, IME, anyway. Kind of like being in a locker room. You're not used to being naked with people you were just fully clothed around (feels like "are we gonna ◊◊◊◊ or something?") then in like ten seconds, you don't even clock it anymore.

When I was on a Rescue Squad way back, even badly injured people were noticably self conscious if we had to cut their clothes open to keep the inside stuff where it belonged. I mean, how deep can modesty run when you get shy with people trying to keep your blood inside you?

As for the public restrooms, there was another ISF thread a few years ago about that. Back then, I linked to an article by a Danish feminist demanding that all public restrooms be turned into "mixed sex multi occupant public restrooms," if I remember correctly. The only thing that surprised me about her demand was that single-sex public restrooms apparently still exist in Denmark. I don't remember seeing one in the last 20 years or so.

They got suddenly hip around here I guess 15 or so years ago. My vaguest of impressions is that they were tried out, and got feedback saying people weren't feeling it, and reverted back to single sex. I thought I saw the sign for a mixed sex large rest room recently in Pittsburgh, but didn't go in.

 

[Thermal]

That won't be the experience shared by most people. If you keep your house and vehicles unlocked, sooner or later it will come back and bite you on the arse.

True enough, it's probably not tremendously common. That's what I kind of like about the forum, though. People share quite a spectrum of their respective lifestyles. It's interesting, from a comparative sense anyway.

Your attitude to this appears to be that womens' discomfit with the prospect of men being allowed into their safe spaces as of right, is of no import.

Somehow, you are misreading my very plain speaking posts, where I adamantly say the opposite.

Like biological sex, this is binary - you either support the concept of safe spaces or you don't.
If you support it, then you oppose the concept of biological men being able to selfID by fiat to gain access
If you don't support it, then you are fine with biological men having right of access to women's toilets, shelters and rape crisis centres
There is nothing in between in this debate - no grey area.
Where do you stand in this issue?

Exactly where I've said I stand. I have mixed feelings and am discussing it on a board where there are a wide variety of opinions, to work out if there is some middle ground that might not have occurred to any of us individually.

Bwahahaha! Thorny? Your posts are about as thorny as a Ouachita blackberry bush!

You think you pose tough questions, but mostly, you pose stupid ones - questions that have already been answered multiple times in your absence from this dicussion.

You really misunderstand... like virtually everything, apparently to make douchey personal comments. Please knock it off.

I'm not posing "tough" questions. They are pretty bland. That they are thorny for you is a "you" thing.

It was recently mentioned that you said you would attack and cripple a trans woman just for entering a women's rest room (not said by you, but no denial from you either). If that is your position, that's profoundly bigoted. Any "thorniness" about that is solidly a "you" thing.

 

[smartcooky]

It was recently mentioned that you said you would attack and cripple a trans woman
just for entering a women's rest room(not said by you, but no denial from you either). If that is your position, that's profoundly bigoted. Any "thorniness" about that is solidly a "you" thing.

That is a complete misrepresentation of what I posted.

I posted this meme

Please note: It says "If you follow my daughter or my wife.... " NOT "... just for entering..."

And I stand by that. After what happened to my daughters at a couple of the public toilets in my home town (two separate occasions) I have armed them with the necessary "tools" to deal with biological males who accost them in women's bathrooms.

 

[Thermal]

That is a complete misrepresentation of what I posted.

I posted this meme

Please note: It says "If you follow my daughter or my wife.... " NOT "... just for entering..."

I see that. I see it also doesn't say "attack" or "assault" my wife or daughter. The meme creator specificly chose to indicate a legal and nonviolent act: following. They wanted it clear that the threat to violently batter and cripple would be purely aggressive.

And who does this apply to? The meme says "if you belong in the men's room". Google tells me that trans women are allowed in women's rest rooms in NZ, so they legally belong there. So either this is not about trans women, or the meme creator wants to say your laws don't apply to him. He makes his own rules, which is consistent with his promise to cripple a person who has commited no crime.

Surely you see how this message is problematic?

And I stand by that. After what happened to my daughters at a couple of the public toilets in my home town (two separate occasions) I have armed them with the necessary "tools" to deal with biological males who accost them in women's bathrooms.

You've said that before, and I'm truly sorry to hear it. But at some level, you must understand that all trans women are not violent, and don't deserve these threats? I mean, trans women make up less than one percent of the population, and violent trans women are a yet smaller percentage of that small percentage. The odds are staggeringly against that either of your daughters would run up against one in their lifetimes, and absolutely infinitesimal for both to run across them on two seperate occasions so early. I'm sure it must seem to you like trans women are all aggressive attackers, but maybe your daughters just had astoundingly bad luck?

 

[Rolfe]

Stop assenting to the erasure of women's intimate spaces for the comfort and gratification of what you laughingly think is a miniscule number of men. Women matter too.

 

[GlennB]

I see that. I see it also doesn't say "attack" or "assault" my wife or daughter. The meme creator specificly chose to indicate a legal and nonviolent act: following. They wanted it clear that the threat to violently batter and cripple would be purely aggressive.

And who does this apply to? The meme says "if you belong in the men's room". Google tells me that trans women are allowed in women's rest rooms in NZ, so they legally belong there. So either this is not about trans women, or the meme creator wants to say your laws don't apply to him. He makes his own rules, which is consistent with his promise to cripple a person who has commited no crime.

Surely you see how this message is problematic?

You've said that before, and I'm truly sorry to hear it. But at some level, you must understand that all trans women are not violent, and don't deserve these threats? I mean, trans women make up less than one percent of the population, and violent trans women are a yet smaller percentage of that small percentage. The odds are staggeringly against that either of your daughters would run up against one in their lifetimes, and absolutely infinitesimal for both to run across them on two seperate occasions so early. I'm sure it must seem to you like trans women are all aggressive attackers, but maybe your daughters just had astoundingly bad luck?

And what of violent men who use "trans rights" as a ruse to get into women's private spaces, such as bathrooms? You seem to have ignored those.

 

[angrysoba]

Stop assenting to the erasure of women's intimate spaces for the comfort and gratification of what you laughingly think is a miniscule number of men. Women matter too.

How about this, why not oppose the erasure of women's intimate spaces without approving of vigilantism? If the law allows for transwomen in women's toilets, then it is one thing to argue against that, but in the meme that was posted, it was insinuated that any transwomen who legally accesses toilets could be or should be violently assaulted to the point of being crippled.

To me, such memes are no better than the despicable support or even glorification of the behaviour of Luigi Mangione. The people cheering that on will make similarly desperate rationalizations.

 

[angrysoba]

And what of violent men who use "trans rights" as a ruse to get into women's private spaces, such as bathrooms? You seem to have ignored those.

Surely such violent men should be arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law just as we would expect prosecutions of those who violently mete out their own extra-legal punishments of people who had done nothing wrong? Is it too much to ask to say that violence by transwomen and by vigilantes should both be condemned?

I don't honestly believe that either you, GlennB or Rolfe, would appreciate living in a world in which people decide to beat the crap out of others who have broken no laws but somehow violate their own head-cannon laws.