Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

I don't know how I'd recognize that.
It's up to them, and what they think it means.I haven't got the slightest idea what it would feel like to believe I am a woman. I can only kinda sorta get what being a trans man would feel like (feeling just like I do right now, but looking down and seeing female plumbing). There's simply no external standard I can defer to, and I'm just trusting them to have it sussed out for their own interpretation of what it would look like.
See that's where I (and a lot of females) have a problem. What they think it means bears no resemblance whatsoever to the actual experiences of females. Their interpretation, what you trust them to have sussed out, is very often extremely insulting and degrading.

Andrea Long Chu - a trans author frequently "lauded" for how "insightful" they are has this to say:

Femaleness is a universal sex defined by self-negation, against which all politics, even feminist politics, rebels. Put more simply: Everyone is female, and everyone hates it.

Gender is not just the misogynistic expectations a female internalizes but also the process of internalizing itself, the self's gentle suicide in the name of someone else's desires, someone else's narcissism.
EDIT - REMOVED TWITTER LINK BECAUSE IT EMBEDDED AND HAS DIRTY WORDS IN IT
... distilling the femaleness to its barest essentials - an open mouth, and expectant ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊, blank, blank eyes.
 
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If we're being technical... a slippery slope fallacy is a fallacy, but that doesn't imply that no slopes are actually slippery.

No, of course not. Implying that something is necessarily false because a fallacy was used is itself the appeal to fallacy fallacy. But using a fallacy means you haven't proved your point. It may be coincidentally true anyway, or it might not. No reason to go that route when you have a perfectly valid correlation -- which you do -- is all I'm saying.
 
No, of course not. Implying that something is necessarily false because a fallacy was used is itself the appeal to fallacy fallacy. But using a fallacy means you haven't proved your point. It may be coincidentally true anyway, or it might not. No reason to go that route when you have a perfectly valid correlation -- which you do -- is all I'm saying.
Well said :)
 
Ok, but that's actually making the TRA point: there's no objective standard, so some dude rocking a beard is a woman in their own mind and there's no valid argument from us against it.

Some positive claim -- i.e., something to the extent of "X is true" or "Y happened" (the two being trivially equivalent, if you just take X="Y happened") -- being true just because you don't have the disproof is a literal case of the Argument From Ignorance Fallacy. If you don't know if X is true (be it a dude claiming to be the bearded woman or anything else) or not, then that's just that: you don't know. It's not an argument to overturn literally millennia of experience that we had in what is female and what isn't. And I mean literally since we discovered animal husbandry. We have literally that long of an experience in that milking the bull results in some very different tasting yoghurt ;) And literally 200,000 years of experience that screwing another dude doesn't result in a pregnancy. I mean, it's not even just since we discovered writing, but even those palaeolithical pregnant venus figurines with a big belly an big breasts, never had a dick :p
 
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Not necessarily. Their idea of what a woman looks/acts/presents as may or may not hit a stereotype. Many, many women and men very solidly adhere to what we would call stereotypical sex roles. Why wouldn't that same spectrum be available to a trans person? Why does it have to be regressive stereotyping for them, but not for my classically feminine wife?

But see, that's what I called rolling back almost a century of progress. That's almost how long that we've known that to be just a learned role -- or I again point you at the anthropology term of enculturation lest you want to go down the "but role means pretending" route again -- as opposed to something intrinsic. Women didn't become nurses because it's something inherently girly, but because they've been educated by and absorbed from their parents, siblings, peers, etc, that's what society expected of them and that's how you act if you're a proper woman.

In fact, even in the west, what's woman role and what's man role changed several times in the last century alone to make the case that it's whatever lower paid role the men didn't want.

Once "calculator" meant a low paid woman doing maths by hand. Those bomb sights and artillery tables for the battleships? That was whole hangars worth of women doing that by hand. Then some berks decided that no, women aren't good at maths.

Earlier, the idea was that a woman reading novels makes her immoral. You know, hormones running amuk. Then some berks decided that women should stick to being writers.

Earlier, the idea was that women can't teach, because St Paul said so. Then some berks decided that women should stick to being teachers.

Etc.

Fer fork's sake, if you go even further back, some 500 years ago even being a midwife, as in a woman instead of a man delivering babies, would get you suspected of being a witch.

And that's not even going into other regional variations. (E.g., absolutely not making it up, I can think of one civilization where some guys thought that women can't be feminine enough and are generally obsolete, since they can just screw each other:p)

That's what knowing some history and anthropology gets you.

So what does it even MEAN to actually live as a woman? You only need to go a century back to get the idea that someone who is a perfectly normal man or woman today, would be a transsexual back then. Even if they never thought of themselves as that.

I mean, literally, if I had been born half a century earlier than I was, then grandma dressing me in pink dresses would have been a perfectly male way to raise me. It would have been more worrying if she dressed me in blue instead.

Hell, we even still have people alive remembering those good old times when men were men and women were women... meaning something else than today. Did they turn trans over time?
 
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So what does it even MEAN to actually live as a woman? You only need to go a century back...
While the historical background certainly makes for interesting discussion, it's a little to the side of the question you pose. What it would mean to a trans person (I assume) is that they feel out of place in their bodies, and they look around, in the here and now, and see contemporary women and think "that right there is what I feel like".

Whether they are just digging the currently fashionable enculturalized gender roles doesn't really matter. They see it, and identify it as what they feel like. I mean, I guess. As you said, I don't know either what it feels like to be a man or woman. But I can relate to something trivial like a style of clothing that makes me say "oh yeah, that's me" more than any other style, no matter how stereotypically manly or feminine it might be.
 
Is it? Because I still feel just as comfortable in pants or a dress. In fact, more women around here seem to be more comfortable in jeans than I was. Liking dolls? I went all the way across town with a huge teddy bear, making it wave at other cars. (Dad was driving, not me.)

(Meanwhile mom was like, "Don't you have any shame? You're a grown up man, you can't walk around with a teddy bear! Give it here!" My answer? "Don't you have any shame? You're a grown up woman, you can't walk around with a teddy bear! I keep it!" True story:p)

So what else would clear up my gender confusion?
 
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While the historical background certainly makes for interesting discussion, it's a little to the side of the question you pose. What it would mean to a trans person (I assume) is that they feel out of place in their bodies, and they look around, in the here and now, and see contemporary women and think "that right there is what I feel like".

Whether they are just digging the currently fashionable enculturalized gender roles doesn't really matter. They see it, and identify it as what they feel like. I mean, I guess. As you said, I don't know either what it feels like to be a man or woman. But I can relate to something trivial like a style of clothing that makes me say "oh yeah, that's me" more than any other style, no matter how stereotypically manly or feminine it might be.

You assume. There's your problem right there.
 
@Thermal
But anyway, funny anecdotes aside and back to what actually matters, you introduced the distinction of: what someone if actually lived as a woman.

So what matters is what that actually means, and how would I or you tell. Because, as I was saying before, some people do lie. Or are just confused.

Hell, how would they tell they're actually living as a woman, given that pretty much everything short of giving birth is equally open? Just wanting to go to the girls' bathroom?

I mean, I know I used the example of people identifying of cats, and it wasn't even some absurd scenario. When it comes to girls identifying as cats, as I keep saying, we're in the middle of a catgirl pandemic of anime proportions. So how would I know if someone actually identifies as that, or would just like to be a cat? Because the two are very different scenarios.

And does either scenario actually means she is a cat? Like, does it mean I can go adopt a catgirl at a convention, and be a responsible owner and neuter/spay her? :p
 
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@Thermal
But anyway, funny anecdotes aside and back to what actually matters, you introduced the distinction of: what someone if actually lived as a woman.

So what matters is what that actually means, and how would I or you tell. Because, as I was saying before, some people do lie. Or are just confused.

Hell, how would they tell they're actually living as a woman, given that pretty much everything short of giving birth is equally open? Just wanting to go to the girls' bathroom?

I mean, I know I used the example of people identifying of cats, and it wasn't even some absurd scenario. When it comes to girls identifying as cats, as I keep saying, we're in the middle of a catgirl pandemic of anime proportions. So how would I know if someone actually identifies as that, or would just like to be a cat? Because the two are very different scenarios.

And does either scenario actually means she is a cat? Like, does it mean I can go adopt a catgirl at a convention, and be a responsible owner and neuter/spay her? :p
I haven't been following this thread much, and know too little about most of the issues therein to make any judgment other than one of personal position, but I must wonder here whether you are actually, as it seems you are, equating the difference between sexes and the difference between species. I suspect there are many women in the world who would find that an unacceptable position, and one that has plagued them in their search for equality.
 
Well, it's just that many of the arguments for trans being what they self-ID as are also arguments for people who self-ID as cats. (And to be clear, not only females. There are catboys around too. Not as many as the catgirls, but they exist. Good for the catboys, I guess. They can have whole prides;))

Call it an ad-absurdum. Literally. You know, applying an argument to something else than intended, to produce an absurd conclusion. Like if I were claiming that the Pythagoras theorem applies to all triangles, because it holds true for a right angle, you can apply that to a different triangle to prove me wrong by showing that it leads to an absurd conclusion. (Think, equilateral triangle for a trivial time of it.) Or like Galileo showed that Aristotle's idea that a weight weighing twice as much falls twice as fast by applying that idea to two weights tied together with a chain leads to a paradox. So if the conclusion is clearly unacceptable... GOOD. That's how an ad-absurdum works, really.
 
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Well, it's just that many of the arguments for trans being what they self-ID as are also arguments for people who self-ID as cats. (And to be clear, not only females. There are catboys around too. Not as many as the catgirls, but they exist. Good for the catboys, I guess. They can have whole prides;))

Call it an ad-absurdum. Literally. You know, applying an argument to something else than intended, to produce an absurd conclusion. Like if I were claiming that the Pythagoras theorem applies to all triangles, because it holds true for a right angle, you can apply that to a different triangle to prove me wrong by showing that it leads to an absurd conclusion. (Think, equilateral triangle for a trivial time of it.) Or like Galileo showed that Aristotle's idea that a weight weighing twice as much falls twice as fast by applying that idea to two weights tied together with a chain leads to a paradox. So if the conclusion is clearly unacceptable... GOOD. That's how an ad-absurdum works, really.
I would contend that a useful reductio ad absurdum requires a more tangible parallel between things. It takes an argument and applies it to something that is, so to speak, sufficiently continuous with its original object that the absurdity does not violate the rule in question. If I argue that the Pythagorean theorem applies to all triangles, showing that it does not apply to some triangles is a reductio ad absurdum (if a rather low budget one) but proving that it cannot apply to cubes or giraffes is not.

We can happily disagree if you like, since this argument has strayed as far toward the margins of the topic as it should, I think. But I contend that sex and species are not kinds of the same thing, and that proving or disproving anything about one is irrelevant to the other, even if there is some resemblance of some features. And further that the shortcomings of language and the folly of mankind can result in disparate claims using similar language. The fact that some bozo can claim to identify as a cat or a pony or a chainsaw does not necessarily mean that gender identification is similarly foolish. At least in most cases, so far at least, or at least out here in the rarefied zones beyond the manosphere, men and women belong to the same species.

I assert this as a separate and disconnected thing, which is to say it would continue to be true even if you were to come up with a better argument for why gender identification is foolish, even one so plangent and cromulent that your erstwhile foes slink off in shame to pawn their pinafores. I have my own poorly formed and inadequately articulated ideas on gender issues based more on civil society than science, and have stayed out of this discussion for the most part, and my argument here is a rhetorical one.
 
Some people here may be interested to know that the Studies Show has now "un-paywalled" its episode on the Cass Review and youth gender medicine. It may not have anything "new" in it given that it came out not long after the Cass Review was published but from memory it did a pretty good job of explaining how the Cass Review was compiled and covered two particular areas: whether puberty blockers reduced gender dysphoria and whether they reduced suicidality. Spoiler: there is no good evidence they do.

It eschews any moralizing and grand-standing that has blighted this debate on both sides and is all the more persuasive for it, in my humble opinion.

 
I would contend that a useful reductio ad absurdum requires a more tangible parallel between things.

It doesn't require them to be identical, though. But we have more than a tangible parallel anyway, and in fact an outright common thing, in that both claim to be something they're biologically not, in some other way than biology (or engineering, in the case of attack helicopters;)) I mean, even most trans and trans activists don't claim that they're biological women, just that there's some other meaning of woman in which they qualify.

It doesn't require gender and species to be the same thing, and of course nobody said that women are actually any other species than human.

The question of why we allow just self-ID -- and biology and chromosomes have nothing to do with it -- to one, but not to the other, remains valid.

Plus, we can do the same exercise inside the human species too, or hell even inside the same gender. I mean, I mentioned BIID already, which is a real thing in the DSM-V. If I self-identify as one-legged, is it ok to park in the handicapped spaces? Do I get insurance to pay for my wheelchair? Or if I self-identify as sober, am I allowed to drive? Or if I self-identify as poor, do I get government support? Etc.
 
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How about a 200 pound boxer who self identifies as svelt and demands to be allowed to compete for the Bantumweight title?
 
Courtesty of the New York Post... the consequences

A former inmate at a Washington state women’s prison was repeatedly sexually assaulted by her hulking transgender cellmate — who was transferred to the prison after changing her gender identity, according to a shocking new lawsuit.


Mozzy Clark sued the state department of corrections in federal court last week for locking her in a cell with a 6-foot-4 convicted child molester who allegedly subjected her to months of stalking, threats of violence and sexual harassment and assault, according to the lawsuit.

The cellmate, Christopher Scott Williams, was convicted of sexually assaulting a young girl as a male, and was serving a separate sentence for domestic abuse.

https://nypost.com/2024/12/29/us-ne...lly-assaulted-cellmate-at-womens-prison-suit/
 
Is it? Because I still feel just as comfortable in pants or a dress. In fact, more women around here seem to be more comfortable in jeans than I was. Liking dolls? I went all the way across town with a huge teddy bear, making it wave at other cars. (Dad was driving, not me.)

(Meanwhile mom was like, "Don't you have any shame? You're a grown up man, you can't walk around with a teddy bear! Give it here!" My answer? "Don't you have any shame? You're a grown up woman, you can't walk around with a teddy bear! I keep it!" True story:p)
Ok, but without having the actual data in front of me, I feel confident in saying that most guys will fall on a Bell Curve distribution model for gender representation. Most of us would find clothing we like in the "Mens" (whatever that may mean :) ) department at Macy's. The extremes at the ends would not. You might not appear neatly on that curve, but I also doubt many trans dudes would be pointing specifically at you saying "Hans right there is what I feel like". They'd be pointing at those in the big part of the Bell Curve.

That's what I mean about stereotyped role models. I don't think they are deliberately picking some hackneyed sitcom role to ape. I think they are looking at the wide culture they see around them, and identifying with part of it in the same way I identify with mine. It just feels like a natural fit.

So I wouldn't say that a transwoman would have specifically identifying features to be "living as a woman". There's a spectrum, and most would fit on that Bell Curve distribution, and some maybe a little off the chart.
So what else would clear up my gender confusion?
Beats me, brah. But surely you'd agree that your lifestyle was fairly atypical? Not exactly having a neat representation with others on ye Olde Bell Curve?

But to your point: what do you wear when someone else is not dressing you up, and it's your choice? Are you as likely to go to the market in fishnets as slacks? Is your daily presentation dramatically different than most German men (I think you're in Germany)?
 
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It's because I don't want to be a jerk to people (unintentionally).
I'm sure you're sincere about this, but I think perhaps you haven't thought this through. How often is this actually an issue for you?

Your personal relationships are yours to arrange however you like. Are you personally acquainted with a transwoman? Then you should be talking to them about how they'd like to be treated and in what circumstances.

In the workplace, and in your business dealings, you can follow the pronoun and other conventions of the workplace or business in question easily enough. Or if that rankles, work for/do business with someone else.

What's left? Helping a woman eject a transwoman from a restroom or locker room? You've already agreed that this is a scenario where you wouldn't be concerned about rudeness on your part.

And I believe that if you really think about it, the fact that nobody can definitively tell you what womanhood means works in your favor: You can for the most part just smile and nod and get on with your life. You already know how to do this with other contentious topics that are neither well-defined nor worth getting into arguments about. Religion. Sports. Etc. Once you realize that gender expression has no practical relevance, it becomes very easy to politely ignore.
 
I'm sure you're sincere about this, but I think perhaps you haven't thought this through. How often is this actually an issue for you?

Your personal relationships are yours to arrange however you like. Are you personally acquainted with a transwoman? Then you should be talking to them about how they'd like to be treated and in what circumstances.
Just one, knowingly. The (now) daughter of a long time customer that I watched as she went from being an openly gay teen boy, to fully medically transitioned adult woman. She's a she, to me, with no caveats, although when she first declared herself to be trans, I thought of her as a he, because he had been so for years to me already. It took a while.

Now I think of her as a she with no aterisk. She is also so convincing in presentation that I realized I may have several.others in my life that I never checked under the hood to verify, and could well be trans.

And there have been arguments presented here that if you "know" a person to be trans, you are in the reality-based right to continue to refer to them as a he. That's the part that makes me squirm. Just as a social matter, isn't that a bit douchey?
In the workplace, and in your business dealings, you can follow the pronoun and other conventions of the workplace or business in question easily enough. Or if that rankles, work for/do business with someone else.

What's left? Helping a woman eject a transwoman from a restroom or locker room? You've already agreed that this is a scenario where you wouldn't be concerned about rudeness on your part.

And I believe that if you really think about it, the fact that nobody can definitively tell you what womanhood means works in your favor: You can for the most part just smile and nod and get on with your life. You already know how to do this with other contentious topics that are neither well-defined nor worth getting into arguments about. Religion. Sports. Etc. Once you realize that gender expression has no practical relevance, it becomes very easy to politely ignore.
Going back to the above: it's the social aspect (making this kind of a Miss Manners discussion). Say were all in a group here. One member is a trans woman. A few members keep referring to her as a man, despite her objections, saying they can't be denied the right to assert biological reality. This thread is in the Social Issues forum, so I think its fair game to talk about how we confront this issue in a social setting.
 
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Going back to the above: it's the social aspect (making this kind of a Miss Manners discussion). Say were all in a group here. One member is a trans woman. A few members keep referring to her as a man, despite her objections, saying they can't be denied the right to assert biological reality. This thread is in the Social Issues forum, so I think its fair game to talk about how we confront this issue in a social setting.

I think most of us have already agreed to something more or less along the lines that if that trans is not in the women's safe spaces or sport, meh, carry on.

I actually had an experience recently, where a bald taxi driver I knew was suddenly in a blonde wig and dress. What made it funny is that he still looked and sounded nothing like a woman. But hey, I kept it professional, gave the usual tip and all that. Not gonna rain on someone's cosplay :p
 
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