Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

I mean, you literally suggested a mental disorder.
Not disorder, in the diagnostic sense. More like a crossed wire. Something that doesn't get treatment or therapy to "cure the malady". Just one of those things.
And it seems to me that we've had a very productive discussion, in spite of the TRA's manifest refusal and inability to crystal-clarify their ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up narrative. Indeed, that shortcoming is kind of Exhibit A, of the bankruptcy of their position.

Anyway, aside from transcending sex segregation, what do you think transwomen need, that they don't already have?
The more I think about it, I can't imagine how any discussion at all can take place till that gender thing gets ironed out. Beyond "it's complicated", as a bare minimum.
 
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I don't call anyone "he" (or "she") to their face. I call them "you". And nobody gets to compel my speech in general conversation.
 
According to the 'Freedom from Religion Foundation' a woman is whoever says they are one....

One of my favorite stories from my classical philosophy college courses is a particular episode between Plato and Diogenes the Cynic, who were both attempting to define a man.

According to the tale, Plato had proffered the definition of “a featherless biped.” Upon hearing this, Diogenes, absolute chaos gremlin that he was, plucked a chicken, and took it to one of Plato’s lectures on the topic. When Plato gave his definition to the audience, Diogenes stood up, lifted the featherless chicken for the crowd to see, and shouted “Behold! A man!” Plato then amended his definition to “a featherless biped with broad, flat nails.”

This is one of my favorites for a lot of reasons. First off, it’s objectively hilarious. I can think of more than one person in my life who would attempt to pull off that type of stunt just to annoy an academic who has defined something in a way they dislike (minus the animal cruelty, of course). Second, it continues to resonate millennia later, but now instead of asking “What is a man” people are asking “What is a woman?”

Some people define a “woman” as someone with a vagina. This presents problems, as transgender women who receive bottom surgery have vaginas. So, then, perhaps it is someone born with a vagina? Well, what does that mean for intersex people, who are often given genital surgery at birth when their anatomy does not firmly meet criteria for a penis or vagina? It can’t be based on whether or not the person has a uterus, because not only does that present issues for intersex people, but also women who have hysterectomies. Even more issues arise if you attempt to define womanhood based on the ability to conceive children, or have a period, as it would also exclude women who have any number of medical conditions, or who have gone through menopause.

https://freethoughtnow.org/what-is-a-woman/
 
... for at least some of which we already even have a name for in the DSM-V: the body integrity identity disorder (BIID). There are people who think their identity is being one-legged, so they want to have a healthy leg amputated. Or they identify as someone in a wheelchair, so they want someone to sever their spine to that effect. Clue is in the name: it's considered a disorder, and there's increasing momentum building to the idea that they should get some other treatment than fulfilling their wish to be in a wheelchair.

Anorexics are another example. Convinced they are fat, despite actually being a normal weight, and deliberately damaging their healthy body as a result. I wonder if any have demanded to be prescribed the new weight control drugs yet.
 
According to the 'Freedom from Religion Foundation' a woman is whoever says they are one....



https://freethoughtnow.org/what-is-a-woman/
The problem with that philosophical conundrum is that it's a literal case of the Loki's Wager fallacy, and not a very good argument to even make the case for the fallacy. It's the kind of thing that's written for people who already believe that, because otherwise it doesn't really take more than 5 minutes for the logic to kick in.

For a start the whole taking the argument all the way back to Plato is irrelevant, because nowadays we have biology and genetics, we don't have to go by vague external similarities like in those days. It's the same as those who base their proof of God on Aquinas, even though physics invalidated most of that. (E.g., we no longer need some divine mover to move the planets around.)

The biggest problem is that that line of thinking practically writes its own ad-absurdum disproof.

E.g., let's apply it to this instead of women: I say I'm a cat. Doesn't that argument support my claim too?

You could say stuff like, but cats have fur. Not sphynx cats, they don't. Or you could say, but cats don't walk on two legs. Well, I could give you links to YT where cats walk on two legs. Or you could say, but cats have slit pupils. Not all species. Etc.

So I say meow to you :p

And that's why we go by biology instead :p
 
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I don't understand the comparison here. I'm pretty sure women are sexually assaulted versus murdered at a rate much greater than 20 to one. Or that men commit sexual offenses over murder at a rate alarmingly higher than 20:1.

And that's showing annual murders versus total incarcerated, of which some would be for more than one year, so a multi year offender list compared to a single year?
 
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Not disorder, in the diagnostic sense. More like a crossed wire. Something that doesn't get treatment or therapy to "cure the malady". Just one of those things.
Is there a difference between (1) a delusion in which a person holds that they are actually, in every regard, the opposite sex compared to their plain biology, and (2) a persistent and strong feeling of having some significant part of the opposite sex inside themselves?

Allow me to illustrate a faint echo of (2). I once decided to try adopting one of my ex-wife's identifiable stances: standing, feet under the shoulders but one foot angled out with the knee of that leg bent, weight on the other leg with that hip pushed out, and hands on hips. You've seen lots of females take that stance, and few males; it's a stereotype. When I did that, I had the strangest feeling come over me, like something was just wrong. It was a unique experience.
 
Is there a difference between (1) a delusion in which a person holds that they are actually, in every regard, the opposite sex compared to their plain biology, and (2) a persistent and strong feeling of having some significant part of the opposite sex inside themselves?
Beats me. I can only kinda sorta understand being trans by just being who I am now, and imagining looking down and seeing a woman's body. But even that isn't right, because a trans person would have seen that "wrong" body their whole lives, just like I've seen my own "right" one.

Feeling like you are some kind of "split" (your #2) sounds super creepy, on par with hearing voices, or a Jekyll and Hyde thing.
Allow me to illustrate a faint echo of (2). I once decided to try adopting one of my ex-wife's identifiable stances: standing, feet under the shoulders but one foot angled out with the knee of that leg bent, weight on the other leg with that hip pushed out, and hands on hips. You've seen lots of females take that stance, and few males; it's a stereotype. When I did that, I had the strangest feeling come over me, like something was just wrong. It was a unique eexperience.
You should try putting on the French maid outfit. I hate my wife's birthday.

I totally get a guy with a very stereotypically feminine bearing/habits/presentation, or a manly woman. They're just at a different point on that m-f spectrum. To your point, I tried that stance thing. I felt like I was comedically playing a sassy woman. It felt almost normal with left foot turned out, but very odd with right turned out.
 
There are at least two major angles going here: the legal (discrimination and private spaces) and the social. They are going to be a little different in practice, but I see the argumentative lines getting blurred.

As you say, no one is free from being ridiculed. But misgendering a trans person smacks to me of ridiculing a disabled person. It might not be illegal in every context, but it's unnecessarily douchey.

Eta: also, I'm not suggesting a mental disorder, per se, in trans gender people. Just that they are too on board with a ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up narrative that needs to get crystal clear clarified to be productively discussed.
I think the most significant progress this discussion has made is that the issue of trans rights in public policy can indeed be productively discussed, without making any effort to clarify the ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up trans orthodox narrative.

Once you realize that sex segregation exists for a good reason, and that nothing in the ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up narrative justifies transcending that, the narrative becomes irrelevant.

It's not incumbent on you make the TRA narrative make sense. And you can in fact productively discuss trans rights in public policy, without that clarification.
 
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I think the most significant progress this discussion has made is that the issue of trans rights in public policy can indeed be productively discussed, without making any effort to clarify the ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up trans orthodox narrative.

Once you realize that sex segregation exists for a good reason, and that nothing in the ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up narrative justifies transcending that, the narrative becomes irrelevant.

It's not incumbent on you make the TRA narrative make sense. And you can in fact productively discuss trans rights in public policy, without that clarification.
Right, but I also want to be like a nice person, and if they want to be called a she, then I want to accommodate them if it's no skin off my back, and even if it is a little bit. Then that opens up the "well if you acknowledge I'm a she, then 'shes' go in the women's rest rooms" argument.
 
Right, but I also want to be like a nice person, and if they want to be called a she, then I want to accommodate them if it's no skin off my back, and even if it is a little bit. Then that opens up the "well if you acknowledge I'm a she, then 'shes' go in the women's rest rooms" argument.
It doesn't open up the argument. That's the progress we've made. Males aren't females forecloses that argument, preemptively.

The only reason to open up that argument is because you want to. I'm begging you, make some progress. Embrace the conclusion that preferred pronouns don't trump sex segregation. Why is this such a sticking point for you? Is it that you haven't been keeping up with the progress in this debate? Or is because you don't like that conclusion, for some reason?
 
It doesn't open up the argument. That's the progress we've made. Males aren't females forecloses that argument, preemptively.

The only reason to open up that argument is because you want to. I'm begging you, make some progress. Embrace the conclusion that preferred pronouns don't trump sex segregation. Why is this such a sticking point for you? Is it that you haven't been keeping up with the progress in this debate? Or is because you don't like that conclusion, for some reason?
It's because I don't want to be a jerk to people (unintentionally). I want people to feel included and welcome and free to live their lives. Part of that is to *not* tell them they are not what they think they are daily.

The shortest, most fair way to get there, as I see it, is to force clarity on the gender thing. That ends all debate, although not in the way gender cheerleaders will like. If it doesn't mean sex, then discussions about using the opposite sex's bathrooms etc are over and we go about our merry way.

Eta: the only reason a single word of this debate exists is because we don't nail down a definition of gender. Gender cheerleaders want to say it's "how you internally think of yourself" when it's convenient, and say it's synonymous with sex when otherwise convenient, then say "it's complicated" when you point out they are being ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.
 
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Last peek at the thread for 2024. How y'all doing with that defining what a wo/man is thingy?
Almost everyone pushing for redefinition has flounced from the thread.

This is something of a bummer (IMO; YMMV) because the issue remains hotly contested in the broader culture.
 
Right, but I also want to be like a nice person, and if they want to be called a she, then I want to accommodate them if it's no skin off my back, and even if it is a little bit. Then that opens up the "well if you acknowledge I'm a she, then 'shes' go in the women's rest rooms" argument.
No. That makes no sense. If I want to be called "Superman" that doesn't make me able to fly, have x-ray vision, and/or give me super strength, speed and invulnerability. Or if you want something that isn't in fiction, I can't simply think I'm a US Naval Intelligence Officer, and then walk right into NMIC in Suitland MD.
 
So it seems like there is a bit of a to-do over the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Richard Dawkins, Steven Pinker and Jerry Coyne have resigned.
It seems FFFR made a post saying something to the effect of "someone is a woman if they say they are", to which Jerry Coyne responded that that makes no sense as a definition spelling out what it means in biological terms. Then FFFR deleted Coyne's post informing him it was upsetting to some people. So he resigned and the others followed.

Here is Richard Dawkins's letter of resignation:

Dear Annie Laurie and Dan

It is with real sadness, because of my personal regard for you both, that I feel obliged to resign from the Advisory Board of FFRF. Publishing the silly and unscientific “What is a Woman” article by Kat Grant was a minor error of judgment, redeemed by the decision to publish a rebuttal by a distinguished scientist from the relevant field of Biology, Jerry Coyne. But alas, the sequel was an act of unseemly panic when you caved in to hysterical squeals from predictable quarters and retrospectively censored that excellent rebuttal. Moreover, to summarily take it down without even informing the author of your intention was an act of lamentable discourtesy to a member of your own Advisory Board. A Board which I now leave with regret.

Although I formally resign, I would like to remain on friendly terms with you, and I look forward to cooperating in the future. And to delightful musical evenings if the opportunity arises.

Yours sincerely
Richard

 

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