Merged Strict biological definitions of male/female

[Rolfe]

This is simplistic, but here goes. Imagine an orchard with just two types of tree - or just two trees, if you like. Apple and pear. It's autumn, and harvest time. The orchard is stripped of all fruit, from both types of tree. How do you go about separating the apples from the pears?

Most of the time this will be perfectly simple. We all know what an apple looks like, and a pear. Get on with it. But there will be some fruit that are difficult to categorise due to miss-shapes or pest damage or whatever. Most of those can probably be categorised on closer inspection too, but there may still remain some doubful ones. It would be possible to go as deep into this as you had to, to decide whether any individual fruit was an apple or a pear. Microscopic examination, DNA sequencing, whatever. Because each one is in fact either an apple or a pear. No matter how mis-shapen or discoloured. Each fruit grew on one of the two trees. Not both, and not neither. There is no such thing as a pepple.

There will be spectra of all sorts of characteristics, such as weight and colour and peel thickness and length/circumference ratio. But the reality of whether each fruit is an apple or a pear is binary. One or the other, not both, not neither, and none of them are oranges either.

 

[Joe Random]

So since sex isn't binary, therefore ....

Why is it so sodding hard for the proponents to answer?

 

[Myriad]

The frequency, energy, and wavelength of light is quantized, meaning it cannot be any value.

The frequency, energy, and wavelength of light depend on the inertial reference frame in which it's measured.

Is photon energy only quantized in the inertial reference frame in which it's emitted, or only in the reference frame in which it's detected, or both?

What happens when a photon is redshifted due to relative motion? If your claim is correct, then its energy etc. must remain unaffected unless some relative velocity threshold sufficient transition it to the next lower quantum has occurred. Is that what physicists say happens? Is there a formula that relates photon energies to that velocity threshold?

Comparable question regarding sex as a spectrum: Say I, assigned and identified as male since birth, were 10% shorter, had 10% less body hair, and bench pressed 10% less weight than the average male my age. Where does that put me on your allegedly continuous spectrum? Approximately what percent female would I be? How much more male did my wife become following menopause? If sex were a spectrum these questions should make sense, so what are the answers?

 

[smartcooky]

Say I, assigned and identified as male since birth, were 10% shorter, had 10% less body hair, and bench pressed 10% less weight than the average male my age. Where does that put me on your allegedly continuous spectrum? Approximately what percent female would I be? How much more male did my wife become following menopause? If sex were a spectrum these questions should make sense, so what are the answers?

The claim that sex is a spectrum is an idea, dreamed up by ideologues, and used to justify the agenda of the far left and the trans-radical activists they support. Its an idea that collapses like a house of cards when hard questions like these are asked. Ideologues will usually dodge these sorts of questions because they don't have any answers that make sense.

The simple fact is that if sex is really on a spectrum, whether it is continuous or not, it must be the case that some males must be more "male" than other males, and some must be less male. Same for females. How do you measure that? What are SI units for "maleness" or "femaleness". These questions are as ridiculous as they are unanswerable. Sex is binary - the whole concept of it being on a spectrum is preposterous on it face.

 

[bobdroege7]

The frequency, energy, and wavelength of light depend on the inertial reference frame in which it's measured.

Is photon energy only quantized in the inertial reference frame in which it's emitted, or only in the reference frame in which it's detected, or both?

What happens when a photon is redshifted due to relative motion? If your claim is correct, then its energy etc. must remain unaffected unless some relative velocity threshold sufficient transition it to the next lower quantum has occurred. Is that what physicists say happens? Is there a formula that relates photon energies to that velocity threshold.

Red shifted light loses energy as the cosmic background radiation shows.

I don't know what happens to the energy, I could make a guess, but I won't.

All light moves at the speed of light in that medium, so I don't think there is such a threshold.

 

[Myriad]

Red shifted light loses energy as the cosmic background radiation shows.

I don't know what happens to the energy, I could make a guess, but I won't.

All light moves at the speed of light in that medium, so I don't think there is such a threshold.

The question at hand isn't where the energy goes. It's whether the light loses energy only in quantized amounts (and therefore only at specific events along its path), which would have to be true if your claim that light energy can only exist at quantized energy levels were true.

Meanwhile, how about getting back on topic by answering my question about the claimed sex spectrum. How much less female/more male does a woman become due to menopause?

 

[theprestige]

Red shifted light loses energy as the cosmic background radiation shows.

I don't know what happens to the energy, I could make a guess, but I won't.

All light moves at the speed of light in that medium, so I don't think there is such a threshold.

The classic "your analogy is invalid" dodge. Shame on Myriad, for serving you up such an obvious escape hatch. Shame on you, for taking the easy exit, instead of confronting the argument head on.

Let's get back to the thing itself: What metrics tell you how male a person is, versus how female? At what point on your spectrum does a male accumulate enough femaleness to be considered female instead?

Does vocal pitch enter into it? Degree of hirsuitedness? Dick size? Vaginal capacity?

 

[bobdroege7]

The classic "your analogy is invalid" dodge. Shame on Myriad, for serving you up such an obvious escape hatch. Shame on you, for taking the easy exit, instead of confronting the argument head on.

Let's get back to the thing itself: What metrics tell you how male a person is, versus how female? At what point on your spectrum does a male accumulate enough femaleness to be considered female instead?

Does vocal pitch enter into it? Degree of hirsuitedness? Dick size? Vaginal capacity?

I have already confronted the issue, it's male, female, neither, or both.

 

[jimbob]

Please be more civil.

Also Trans threads are enough of a mess without discussing wave-particle duality

Try to get on topic

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Jimbob

 

[smartcooky]

I have already confronted the issue, it's male, female, neither, or both.

Even if true (which it isn't), that still doesn't make sex either bimodal or a spectrum. As I have asked questions of you previously (questions which you studiously ignore) if sex is really on a spectrum, whether it is continuous or not, it must be the case that some males are more "male" than other males, and some are less male. Same for females.

What factors determine an individual's "maleness"?
How you measure that "maleness" or "femaleness"?
What are the SI units for "maleness" or "femaleness"?

If you are so sure you are right, you must know the answers to these questions. Why won't you answer them?

 

[bobdroege7]

Even if true (which it isn't), that still doesn't make sex either bimodal or a spectrum. As I have asked questions of you previously (questions which you studiously ignore) if sex is really on a spectrum, whether it is continuous or not, it must be the case that some males are more "male" than other males, and some are less male. Same for females.

What factors determine an individual's "maleness"?
How you measure that "maleness" or "femaleness"?
What are the SI units for "maleness" or "femaleness"?

If you are so sure you are right, you must know the answers to these questions. Why won't you answer them?

What are the units on the Autism scale?

 

[theprestige]

What are the units on the Autism scale?

Begging the question you're burdened with proving (sex is a spectrum).

Further begging the question that the spectrum of sex (something you have not proven) is properly analogous to the spectrum of autism, such that if we agree with your conclusion about the latter, we must by analogy agree with your unproven claim about the former.

But in fact autism is indeed measured according to several defined factors, and the strength of their expression in the individual being tested. A few moments with Google should bring you up to speed with the conversation herem

To the extent that this analogy is relevant at all, it suffices to say that you merely need to define your factors and how you measure them, to tell us where a given individual would be placed on your male-female sex spectrum.

Which is exactly what @smartcooky asked of you. So why the dodge?

---

As long we're doing this ill-fated analogy anyway, try this one on:

I have red marbles and blue marbles. If I put one of each in a jar, I don't suddenly get a red-blue spectrum of marbles in the jar. If I put no marbles in the jar, I don't suddenly get a spectrum of colors in the marbles in my hand. Regardless of the scenario, each marble still has one of two binary color values.

 

[bobdroege7]

Begging the question you're burdened with proving (sex is a spectrum).

Further begging the question that the spectrum of sex (something you have not proven) is properly analogous to the spectrum of autism, such that if we agree with your conclusion about the latter, we must by analogy agree with your unproven claim about the former.

But in fact autism is indeed measured according to several defined factors, and the strength of their expression in the individual being tested. A few moments with Google should bring you up to speed with the conversation herem

To the extent that this analogy is relevant at all, it suffices to say that you merely need to define your factors and how you measure them, to tell us where a given individual would be placed on your male-female sex spectrum.

Which is exactly what @smartcooky asked of you. So why the dodge?

---

As long we're doing this ill-fated analogy anyway, try this one on:

I have red marbles and blue marbles. If I put one of each in a jar, I don't suddenly get a red-blue spectrum of marbles in the jar. If I put no marbles in the jar, I don't suddenly get a spectrum of colors in the marbles in my hand. Regardless of the scenario, each marble still has one of two binary color values.

It depends on how fast you put them in the jar. And your bias shows because you are neglecting the yellow and green marbles, and not selecting those to put in your jar.

It's a forced binary, in that infants who do not have easily recognized male or female genitalia, are surgically altered to have more female or male looking genitals.

As for how maleness or femaleness is measured, how about the World's Strongest Man contest or Miss America?

Or base it on testosterone levels in the blood.

That is if you must have a quantitative measure of a qualitative idea. I don't think that is possible without bias.

I am not dodging those questions, they are irrelevant to the topic.

 

[Agatha]

What do yellow or green marbles represent in your change to theprestige's analogy, if red and blue are male and female?

There is no sliding scale of male or female. A person is one or the other.

Stronger or weaker men are not more or less male. Beautiful or ugly women (beauty being something which is culture-driven and subjective anyway) are not more or less female.

Testosterone levels by themselves do not indicate male or female, and male individuals with lower than average testosterone for males are not less male than those with average or higher testosterone,

Humans with ambiguous genitalia are either male or female; not an inbetween or third sex. It may be necessary to test a person to determine where they fall on in the chart of DSDs that has been posted multiple times, but they will be either male or female. There are no humans who are neither male nor female, and no humans who are both.

 

[bobdroege7]

The chart is kind of incomplete.

But what do you call a person with a uterus?

What if that person has fathered two children?

And you did not read my last post very well, seems to me you just skimmed over it and you missed the point I was making.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Proof is fifty bucks.

Odds are you know one of them.

3% to 4% of live births in the US.

Are you seriously claiming that between 3% and 4% of the human infants born in the US were somehow created without the fusion of sperm and egg? Do you think cloning is so ubiquitous? Or are you banking on some heretofore illuminati-style secret gamete being leveraged to create superior beings?

LOL... you're talking about twinning. JFC. Do you at least understand that the egg has to be fertilized by a sperm before it's even possible for that gertilized egg to divide into a twin?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I have already shown sex to be bimodal, what more do you want, be specific.

No, you haven't. Your ASSERTIONS are not proof. Saying something over and over doesn't make it true.

Ambiguous genitalia should be enough.

Sure, and conjoint twins totally show that humans are the borg.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The existence of males and females show sex to be bimodal.

If sex is binary, it also has to be bimodal.

This is 100% incorrect.

In order for a distribution to be bimodal, it must be ordinal and must contain more than two observable outcomes. If a distribution contains only two possible outcomes (male and female) and those outcomes are non-ordinal... then it CANNOT be bimodal.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I know what a bimodal distribution is. Categorical variables and continuous variables can have modes. It is not meaningful to talk about a categorical variable having modes if there are only two categories. Even if we accepted a tiny percentage of cases that cannot easily be fitted into one of two categories as a result of genetic disorder, nobody would call that bimodal in any meaningful sense (as you don't say a coin toss is bimodal because the coin occasionally lands on its edge).

Categorical variables can have modes, but they cannot be bimodal as they're not innately ordinal. Without ordinality, any inferred bimodality is an artifact of arbitrary ordering.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sure it is. If a binary distribution has one value with a highest value (or probability mass), then that value is the mode. If both values have the same frequency or probability mass, then the distribution is bimodal. What probably doesn't make sense for a binary distribution is the concept of local modes—local to what, since there are only two possible values?

Mathematically and statistically speaking, no. A binary distribution with equal frequencies isn't considered bimodal, as the variables are not ordinal.