slingblade
Unregistered
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2005
- Messages
- 23,466
Nope. Not even going to make my neighbors kiss his ass.
People with experience with Cults please read
- Thread starter Stirner
- Start date
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- cults experience read
Mackin_NZ
New Blood
- Joined
- May 3, 2005
- Messages
- 10
I was a Jehovah's Witness until about 10 years ago. I can tell you for sure they fit every definition of a cult you can think of, although they themselves would vehemently deny it.
Anyway there's a good discussion board frequented mostly by ex-JW's at jehovahs-witness.com If you hang around for a bit you'll find out all about their weird cultish beliefs.
Mackin_NZ
Anyway there's a good discussion board frequented mostly by ex-JW's at jehovahs-witness.com If you hang around for a bit you'll find out all about their weird cultish beliefs.
Mackin_NZ
Kopji
Philosopher
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2003
- Messages
- 8,004
He just starts with the answer he wants, and then creates a definition of cult that gets him there. This would all be more convincing if the 'evidence' were used to build toward the belief, rather than starting with the belief and then gathering ideas to support it.
If Mormonism were described as a type of Islam rather than orthodox Christianity, "poof" they would not be a cult by his definition.
jon - your avatar is absolutely one of the most annoying optical illusions...
Imrational
Scholar
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2006
- Messages
- 98
I do not have direct experience with cults, but I have done quite a bit of research (I'm planning on writing a fictional book on cults). Basically, you can't force someone to leave. If you can separate someone from a cult for a few days without "kidnapping", let them rest and be attentive to them (hugs, kisses) it'll go a long way. Take them camping for a few days, somewhere secluded. The only way a person will leave a cult is if they want to. Forcing them will not work and may bring legal action down on you.
Small cults (and large ones) frequently follow a pattern. You need to somehow instill some critical thinking into your friends' brains. Try and educate them about cult tactics and the patterns involved. Tell them, "this is how cults operate... does your leader do these things? (or) watch out if your leader starts doing these things".
For example, eventually, as the cult leader is surrounded by people who literally worship them, they lose touch more and more with reality. Cult leaders will frequently attempt to maintain and exert more control by dictating who gets to have sex, who marries who, issuing strange edicts, playing the truescotman fallacy (if you doubt me, you aren't praying hard enough), etc.
In a very caring way, tell your friends about the million dollar prize. If the leader truly has special powers, he/she can be tested and the million dollars could be used for charity or to help the cause. Unless of course the leader is a fake.
Tell your friends about how must cults do not want their beliefs questioned. If questioned, the leader and members frequently "turn" on the person asking or they have the questionner pray/meditate and the person must discover the truths on their own. If it is not a cult, then the leader should welcome the questions and should be able to answer in a way that is easily understood.
Small cults (and large ones) frequently follow a pattern. You need to somehow instill some critical thinking into your friends' brains. Try and educate them about cult tactics and the patterns involved. Tell them, "this is how cults operate... does your leader do these things? (or) watch out if your leader starts doing these things".
For example, eventually, as the cult leader is surrounded by people who literally worship them, they lose touch more and more with reality. Cult leaders will frequently attempt to maintain and exert more control by dictating who gets to have sex, who marries who, issuing strange edicts, playing the truescotman fallacy (if you doubt me, you aren't praying hard enough), etc.
In a very caring way, tell your friends about the million dollar prize. If the leader truly has special powers, he/she can be tested and the million dollars could be used for charity or to help the cause. Unless of course the leader is a fake.
Tell your friends about how must cults do not want their beliefs questioned. If questioned, the leader and members frequently "turn" on the person asking or they have the questionner pray/meditate and the person must discover the truths on their own. If it is not a cult, then the leader should welcome the questions and should be able to answer in a way that is easily understood.
Was this before or after I shattered his soulstone at the Hellforge?
jon - your avatar is absolutely one of the most annoying optical illusions...
It's a Necker cube. Dawkins likes to make reference to Necker cubes and looking at the same thing in a different way, so I thought it would make a good avatar. The little moving blocks just illustrate the way it works.
I weened myself from the cult (who has been known to apply such torturous devices as, "the religous mother") with generous applications of logic and observation. A famous cult-deprogrammer (George Carlin) once put the mystery of faith into plain words for me:
...
Helpful?
Yes, in fact you were the first person who replied who actually took the time to read my post and respond to exactly what I requested, specifically you told me how you managed to get out, and what helped you do that. Thank you for being able to comprehend what you read, and responding accordingly! Others should look to you as a shining example.
This was also helpful, thanks, and yeah I've known all about Rick for what, going on a decade now, I guess...
Can you tell me anything about being 'turned around from your paganism'?
Thanks, I already know a lot about weird cults. Far more than I ever wanted to know. I know more about cults than probably anyone who has responded so far. But that is not important. What I don't know is what it's like to come out of that frame of mind and the process by which one goes about doing so. I would, if possible, like to facillitate my friends in doing so, and thus I would like to know what would be in store for me and them, and possibly figure out a way to help them. I am not here to gather information about cults that is already readily available, because I have already accessed and thoroughly digested that information. I am specifically requesting first-hand accounts from former cult members about how they got out and what made them change their minds. There seems to be a lack of that kind of information available, which is why I haven't come across it yet. I thought I might be able to stir some up here, but haven't been very successful in doing that.
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Thanks, this is pretty much the direction I was planning on going but I was hoping to hear from people who had some first hand experience. You would think that if that's the process by which one would be most successful in getting out of a cult, then many of these former cult members should be showing up in a forum like this one. The fact that the closest we've got here are a couple of former jehovas witnesses is a bit discouraging. You seem to have more academic knowledge of cults than any of the other responders, so I thank you for knowing that cults fit a certain profile which means it is not at all necessary for me to announce specifically which cults my friends are in for my questions to be understood by those who know anything at all about cults, and would therefore be able to give a useful response.
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By the way I realize that this is a large forum with a lot of participants, and that a certain level of noise is to be expected, but because of the focus of this forum and the type of people who frequent it, I think the noise level COULD be much lower. I would venture to guess that every one of the responders who posted useless replies in this thread are highly knowledgable about other topics, that are simultaneously being discussed in other threads. There is no need for people to spread themselves too thin here. I know how this happens, people usually just read and respond to whatever threads are most recent, whether they have anything useful to offer or not. I think it would be more beneficial for people who want to participate, to dig through old threads, as long as it takes until they find something they can contribute something useful to. There are probably hundreds of threads buried in this forum that never got adequately resolved, or for which new information has surfaced since the thread ended, and would benefit from it being presented. Why bother posting knee-jerk quips to whatever is on the first page of headers, when you could dig a little deeper, and bump up an old thread with some new, relevent information.
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TimmyBerry
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2006
- Messages
- 254
Hrm.. Mayhaps one way to leave your cult would be to start another branch of it in some secluded region... with moi as the figurehead.
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
[Flame]
What a pompous bafoon weeine you are Stirner, can you actualy read or do you just whine about other people being able to read? Are you blinded by your ego? What gives?
[/Flame]
You are a weenie Stirner, what makes you think that just because your frineds are involved in a cult that it is doing them harm? You haven't said what groups they belong to or why you feel that these alleged cults are harming them, and then you expect to be spoon fed material that you haven't got the guts to come out and ask for. Your OP was so opaque as to be worthless and you didn't respond to many direct questions that were asked you. So get off your hobby horse and join the conversation, and stop your whining.
1.What makes you think that your friends are involved in cults?
a. What eveidence is there?
b.What groups do they belong to?
c. Are these groups lead by charismatic leaders who use isolation and progamming to kepp them in the cult.
d. Are you sre that you are not just some close minded bigot who is trying to tell your friends what to do?
2. What specific behaviors are yopur friends engaging in that you think are detreimental?
a. Are they giving large sums of money to the cults?
b. Are they isloted from thier former friends?
c. Are they engaging in behaviors that are detrimental to them because of the cults?
d. Are you prejudiced because you don't understand spirituality?
3. What have you done and why are you worried about your friends?
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Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
\
What a whiner!
Why don't you spend more time on your response to whining and more time answering questions.
Hey bozo , I belong to cults!
Do you get it!
I am an active memeber of the thing know as witchcraft. OOOOOOH ! Big scary BOO! Many people would accuse me of being in a cult and would try to deprogram me, because they are bigots!
I am not being brian washed, I am not being forced to do things against my will, I am not being told to give all my money to the cult. In other words while Xian bigots would definitly think that I am a cultist, I am not!I am practicing my faith and spirituality in my way, and they can't cope with it.
So why don't you whine about how posters aren't responding to you, and spend all your time ragging on the forum.
When you could answer three simple questions that any simpleton could answer:
1. Why do you think your friends are in a cult?
2. What is it doing to harm them?
3. What is your freaking role in all this?
Read this you weenie:
This is a sceptics forum, not some faith based cult bash, you can't even say why you think your friends are in cults, what harm it is doing them! The you expect us to spoon feed you answers to questions you didn't even ask while you whine about us wasting your time. Why don't you just go to some Xian fundamentalist site and ask them for help, they won't be sceptical of your beliefs and they will coddle your ego!
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Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
Whiney weendom, by Thor's hairy b*tt crack man, what a whiner you are!
1.What makes you think that your alleged friends are in a cult?
2. How is is harming them?
3. What have you done about it?
I am a sceptic, you haven't even said why you think you friends are involved in cults, for all we know you could be some close minded wonk who is just uncomfortable with you friend's freedom of choice.
You have ignored pointed questions and spent frequent time whining!
1. Why do you think your frineds are involved in cults, what eveidence is there that it is a cult? Are they Scoientologists are they flaming suicide wuhabis?
My goodness man, by Bast's furry breasts!
You could answer questions and join the conversation.
I was raised in the Church of Christ Science , which is a main stream church that partakes on many cult like qualities. It was very detrimental to me that I was denied medical care because of parent's mistaken beliefs. I got out because I realized that it was harmful to me, that is the main reason leave cults!
2. What makes you think that these cults are harmful to your friends?
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
Yeah right buddy, suck up to the christian, that shows what a sceptic you are!
What is harming your friends by being in these cults.
I am very knowledgable about cults, you have yet to demonstrate why you feel your friends are harmed by the cults. How are we to know that you are not some Souther Babtist upset because your friend went to a buddhist temple?
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
1. What makes you think that your friends are involved in cults?
2. How is it harming them?
3. What have you done about it?
The process you describe is much like that involved in substance dependance, domestic violence and mental illness, I am very knowledgeable about how you help people overcome thier denial and get help. But I am sceptic of you and your motives.
1. Examine your motives, are you worried about your friends because of your life or because of thiers?
2. What are the specific behaviors that you feel are harming your friends?
3. Have you tried talking to them about it? What did they say? What did you say?
4. You may not be able to influence your friends right away, the best you can do is:
a. Still be thier friend.
b. Set boundaries on your personal participation in enabling thier harmful behaviors.
c. Deal with your own frustration to be able to bridge them back if they do change thier minds and decide to get out of the cult.
d. Do not offend them by telling they have a proble, focus on specific behaviors and the consequences of choices, do not focus on the cult. Address the behaviors not the cult.
e. Be willing to set limits on yourself and them, if they want to whine about the cult, tell them you will only listen for a limited time. If they want you to compensate for thier poor choices say no. If they want you to join the cult, say that you will not discuss it.
f. Set firm boundaries on yourself and take care of yourself, the goal is for you to still be in contact with them, not enable thier destructive behaviors and to still be thier friend when they want to get out.
I was very sincere when I said that this issue is much like substance abuse, you have to focus on the behaviors and set limits on you enabling the behaviors, it is exactly like ahving a friend who is an alcoholic or drug addicted. If you push an intervention, they may bolt, if you lecture them, they won't see you any more.
So
1. Set limits on when you will see the, like 'you can't come over when you are drunk' or 'you can't come over when you want to cry about being drunk'. Say to them "If you want to be sober I will help".
2. Do not enable thier behaviors, if they are homeless because they gave all thier money to the cults, then let them use your shower but tell them they can't spend the night. Do not let them have drug parties at your house.
3. Take care of yourself, do not let them wear you out, if you get frustrated and cut them off then you won't be able to help them.
So answer the questions:
1. Why do you think that they are in cults?
2. What are the harmful behaviors?
3. What are your behaviors?