Merged Strict biological definitions of male/female

[smartcooky]

Wikipedia says you're correct, my bolding:

ETA: Still don't see how asexual production leads to more than 2 sexes.

Even a broken clock can be right sometimes... but in this case, its entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand anyway. Monozygotic twinning does not lead to a third sex, and it not a valid argument for the existence of one.

 

[bobdroege7]

Wikipedia says you're correct, my bolding:

ETA: Still don't see how asexual production leads to more than 2 sexes.

That was a response to Trausti's question.

 

[bobdroege7]

No, ambiguous genitalia do not show sex to be bimodal.

The existence of males and females show sex to be bimodal.

If sex is binary, it also has to be bimodal.

And for sex to be on a spectrum, does not require a third sex.

Other human conditions such as Autism are on a spectrum.

Ambiguous genitalis as well as humans with some cell with XX chromosomes and some with XY show sex to be non-binary and on a spectrum.

 

[Elaedith]

The existence of males and females show sex to be bimodal.

If sex is binary, it also has to be bimodal.

That makes no sense unless you are defining a binary categorical variable as bimodal because it has two categories.

And for sex to be on a spectrum, does not require a third sex.

If there was a third sex it would be a categorical variable with three categories. That is not what is typically mean by a spectrum either. When people use the term they are referring to sex having a continuous distribution with two modes. It doesn't.

Other human conditions such as Autism are on a spectrum.

Ambiguous genitalis as well as humans with some cell with XX chromosomes and some with XY show sex to be non-binary and on a spectrum.

No, sex is not a cluster of characteristics. There are two types of gamete and two types of reproductive system. Other characteristics cluster around these but those characteristics do not define sex.

 

[bobdroege7]

That makes no sense unless you are defining a binary categorical variable as bimodal because it has two categories.

If there was a third sex it would be a categorical variable with three categories. That is not what is typically mean by a spectrum either. When people use the term they are referring to sex having a continuous distribution with two modes. It doesn't.

No, sex is not a cluster of characteristics. There are two types of gamete and two types of reproductive system. Other characteristics cluster around these but those characteristics do not define sex.

This is what bimodal means:
A bimodal distribution is a probability distribution with two modes.

We often use the term “mode” in descriptive statistics to refer to the most commonly occurring value in a dataset, but in this case the term “mode” refers to a local maximum in a chart.

When you visualize a bimodal distribution, you will notice two distinct “peaks”

Definition of spectrum: used to classify something, or suggest that it can be classified, in terms of its position on a scale between two extreme or opposite points:

note the lack of the term continuous, and as I posted before, the electromagnetic spectrum is discrete instead of continuous, see Max Planck.

Lastly, how many variables are involved in determining sex?

 

[Joe Random]

As has been said a few times in this thread by a few people I'd love to see the blanks filled in : "Sex is not binary, therefore _______________ ."

 

[Elaedith]

This is what bimodal means:
A bimodal distribution is a probability distribution with two modes.

I know what a bimodal distribution is. Categorical variables and continuous variables can have modes. It is not meaningful to talk about a categorical variable having modes if there are only two categories. Even if we accepted a tiny percentage of cases that cannot easily be fitted into one of two categories as a result of genetic disorder, nobody would call that bimodal in any meaningful sense (as you don't say a coin toss is bimodal because the coin occasionally lands on its edge).

We often use the term “mode” in descriptive statistics to refer to the most commonly occurring value in a dataset, but in this case the term “mode” refers to a local maximum in a chart.

When you visualize a bimodal distribution, you will notice two distinct “peaks”

A categorical variable cannot meaningfully have two 'peaks' if there are only two categories. If there were multiple categories we might notice if there are two categories with the higher frequency counts on a histogram, but they wouldn't be described as 'peaks'. Are you just randomly finding stuff and pasting it in?

Definition of spectrum: used to classify something, or suggest that it can be classified, in terms of its position on a scale between two extreme or opposite points:

note the lack of the term continuous, and as I posted before, the electromagnetic spectrum is discrete instead of continuous, see Max Planck.

Irrelevant. When people talk about sex being bimodal or a spectrum they are talking about continuous variables. Look at the nonsense by Steven Novella that you linked to. Do you see the graph with two peaks at the top? That is a continuous distribution with peaks for male and female implying that sex can be measured on a continuous scale. If it was a categorical variable it would be a frequency histogram and there would not be 'peaks'.

Lastly, how many variables are involved in determining sex?

Lots of mechanisms are involved in determining sex, but they don't define sex as I said before.
Have you worked out what discoveries from the human genome project changed our understanding of sex?

 

[smartcooky]

The existence of males and females show sex to be bimodal.

Wrong!
Bimodality requires ordinal variables. The data being bimodally distributed has to have a variable that increases or decreases in one direction, e.g. shorter>longer or longer>shorter, slower>faster or faster>slower, smaller>bigger or bigger>smaller. So, in your claimed bimodal sex distribution, is it male>female or female>male? It can only be one of them. Justify your reasons for your choice.

If sex is binary, it also has to be bimodal.

Wrong!
Binary means two fixed states, its either one or the other. If things that are binary must also be bimodal, please explain the bimodal distribution in binary code (0 or 1), a light switch (on/off), a coin flip (heads/tails), a door lock (locked/unlocked), a yes/no question, a pass/fail test,

And for sex to be on a spectrum, does not require a third sex.

Wrong!
A spectrum consists continuous variables. Anything that does not have contunuous variables cannot be on a spectrum What are some of the examples of continuous variables either side of and/or between male and female on your claimed spectrum, bigger and smaller penisis? Cup size? Hormone levels?
Please explain what makes one male more male than the next male on the male end of your spectrum. Same for females.
Please explain what make one male closer to being female that the next male on the male end of your spectrum. Same for females.

Other human conditions such as Autism are on a spectrum.

Correct, but irrelevant, and a false analogy.
The sex of a person is not a medical illness or condition. There is no therapy or treatment for being male or female.

Autism, on the other hand IS a medical condition, there are treatements and therapies. Autism is known as a “spectrum” disorder because there is wide variation in the type and severity of symptoms people experience. It has ordinal variables.

Ambiguous genitalis as well as humans with some cell with XX chromosomes and some with XY show sex to be non-binary and on a spectrum.

Wrong!
Ambiguous genitalia does not indicate non-binary. Those with ambiguous genitalia will still have a body type organised for gamete production, even if they do not actually produce them, or in rare exmaples, produced both.

If a person's body type is organised around the producion of small gametes (sperm) they are male.
If a person's body type is organised around the producion of large gametes (ova) they are female.

 

[jt512]

It is not meaningful to talk about a categorical variable having modes if there are only two categories.

Sure it is. If a binary distribution has one value with a highest value (or probability mass), then that value is the mode. If both values have the same frequency or probability mass, then the distribution is bimodal. What probably doesn't make sense for a binary distribution is the concept of local modes—local to what, since there are only two possible values?

 

[Elaedith]

Sure it is. If a binary distribution has one value with a highest value (or probability mass), then that value is the mode. If both values have the same frequency or probability mass, then the distribution is bimodal. What probably doesn't make sense for a binary distribution is the concept of local modes—local to what, since there are only two possible values?

Ok, it is meaningful to distinguish between a binary categorical variable with equal frequencies and one with unequal frequencies. But that clearly isn't what is meant here, otherwise the claim that sex is bimodal is indistinguishable from the claim that sex is binary. The claim is that male and female are the most common modes in a larger range of values or frequencies.

 

[bobdroege7]

Wrong!
Bimodality requires ordinal variables. The data being bimodally distributed has to have a variable that increases or decreases in one direction, e.g. shorter>longer or longer>shorter, slower>faster or faster>slower, smaller>bigger or bigger>smaller. So, in your claimed bimodal sex distribution, is it male>female or female>male? It can only be one of them. Justify your reasons for your choice.

Wrong!
Binary means two fixed states, its either one or the other. If things that are binary must also be bimodal, please explain the bimodal distribution in binary code (0 or 1), a light switch (on/off), a coin flip (heads/tails), a door lock (locked/unlocked), a yes/no question, a pass/fail test,

Wrong!
A spectrum consists continuous variables. Anything that does not have contunuous variables cannot be on a spectrum What are some of the examples of continuous variables either side of and/or between male and female on your claimed spectrum, bigger and smaller penisis? Cup size? Hormone levels?
Please explain what makes one male more male than the next male on the male end of your spectrum. Same for females.
Please explain what make one male closer to being female that the next male on the male end of your spectrum. Same for females.

Correct, but irrelevant, and a false analogy.
The sex of a person is not a medical illness or condition. There is no therapy or treatment for being male or female.

Autism, on the other hand IS a medical condition, there are treatements and therapies. Autism is known as a “spectrum” disorder because there is wide variation in the type and severity of symptoms people experience. It has ordinal variables.


Wrong!
Ambiguous genitalia does not indicate non-binary. Those with ambiguous genitalia will still have a body type organised for gamete production, even if they do not actually produce them, or in rare exmaples, produced both.

If a person's body type is organised around the producion of small gametes (sperm) they are male.
If a person's body type is organised around the producion of large gametes (ova) they are female.

#1- Sexual characteristics vary amongst males and females, such as weight, height, strength, and cup size. Penis and clitoris size also vary along a spectrum.

As you say "It can only be one of them." I say that's ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

#2 spectrums do not have to be continuous, again ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

#3 more male or less male, more female or less female, again there is wide variation in the sexual characteristics of both males and females, so a spectrum.

The sex of a person is a condition, and males and females get different treatment based on their sex, you do understand that, have you been to a gynecologist lately?

#4 You are a body typist, shame on you.

 

[Elaedith]

#1- Sexual characteristics vary amongst males and females, such as weight, height, strength, and cup size. Penis and clitoris size also vary along a spectrum.

As you say "It can only be one of them." I say that's ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

#2 spectrums do not have to be continuous, again ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

#3 more male or less male, more female or less female, again there is wide variation in the sexual characteristics of both males and females, so a spectrum.

The sex of a person is a condition, and males and females get different treatment based on their sex, you do understand that, have you been to a gynecologist lately?

#4 You are a body typist, shame on you.

Are you saying a short male is less male than a tall male?

 

[novaphile]

Lol, that's something that would never have occurred to me.

ETA... although it is an opportunity for me to express my sympathy with Mary. It's really hard to get a rape conviction when your rapist is god.

Preach.

Zeus had a pretty ◊◊◊◊◊◊ reputation too.

e.g. "Oh look! A pretty girl! I'll turn into a swan and rape her!" (One of many such instances.)

Good luck in that Court.

 

[novaphile]

Yeah, I can play that game.

Yes, ambiguous genitalia do show sex to be bimodal.

It has been mentioned before:

Ambiguous genitalia show that secondary sexual characteristics vary, not sex.

If you can't even distinguish between those two things, I'd have to assume that you failed biology.

 

[bobdroege7]

It has been mentioned before:

Ambiguous genitalia show that secondary sexual characteristics vary, not sex.

If you can't even distinguish between those two things, I'd have to assume that you failed biology.

Nope, I got a B.

But I did learn that multiple choice exams can be the second hardest kind of exam, second only to open book open notes exams.

If secondary sex characteristics vary, then sex varies.

Anything determined by a host of genes, hormones, and other variables can not be binary.

 

[smartcooky]

#1- Sexual characteristics vary amongst males and females, such as weight, height, strength, and cup size. Penis and clitoris size also vary along a spectrum.

Yep. those are characteristics of the sexes, but they are NOT, repeat NOT the sexes themselves.
A 6ft, 300lb male is a male
A 5ft 10in 250lb males is a still male
One of them is taller and heavier, BUT HE IS NOT MORE MALE, OR LESS MALE!!!

As you say "It can only be one of them." I say that's ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

Humans are 100% anisgamous. They can produce either large gametes (ova) or small gametes (sperm). In some rare cases, they may even be able to produce both - but those rare inviduals are NOT a third sex, they are usually male.

Show me a candidate person who is something other than male or female, whose body is organized around producing gametes that are neother sperm nor ova. You won't be able to, because no such person exists.. There are over 7 billion humans on the planet and there is not one of then that produces a third type of gamete.

#2 spectrums do not have to be continuous, again ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

If I have a spectrum distribution of the weight of 500 males between, say, 100kg and 200kg, but there are gaps where no-one in the sample has weights of exactly 121.5 kg, 133.4kg, 141.7kg etc, that spectrum is still continuous, because there is a still a place for samples of that weight.

#3 more male or less male, more female or less female, again there is wide variation in the sexual characteristics of both males and females, so a spectrum

There is no such thing as more male or less male.... "maleness" is not a variable characteristic of males, and "femaleness" is not a variable characteristic of females. Even accepting, for argument's sake, that there were, how would it be measured? What calibration scale would be used? Are there SI units of "maleness, and if so, what are they?

No, this concept is a figment or your imagination - it only exists in your mind.

The sex of a person is a condition, and males and females get different treatment based on their sex, you do understand that, have you been to a gynecologist lately?

The sex of a person is NOT a condition. It is a characteristic.

Condition refers to a diagnoable health issue or illness. Diagnosis is usually based on symptoms, diagnostic testing and other criteria.

People may be diagnosed with conditions that relate to their sex, but that is not the same thing as being diagnosed with being female!

#4 You are a body typist, shame on you.

I refer to body type scientifically, not asthetically

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Humans are 100% anisgamous. They can produce either large gametes (ova) or small gametes (sperm). In some rare cases, they may even be able to produce both - but those rare inviduals are NOT a third sex, they are usually male.

So usually male, sometimes female? How do you categorize them when they produce both large and small gametes - by the proportion of each? Or do they change sex depending on what they are producing at the time? What about those who can't produce either?

You say sex is determined by whether a person 'can produce' ova or sperm. A menopausal woman cannot produce ova, so what is she?

Genetics of the human Y chromosome and its association with male infertility

The human Y chromosome harbors genes that are responsible for testis development and also for initiation and maintenance of spermatogenesis in adulthood. The long arm of the Y chromosome (Yq) contains many ampliconic and palindromic sequences making it predisposed to self-recombination during spermatogenesis and hence susceptible to intra-chromosomal deletions. Such deletions lead to copy number variation in genes of the Y chromosome resulting in male infertility...

As per WHO 2010 male infertility can be classified based on seminogram under following categories:
Azoospermia- Absence of sperm in the ejaculate...

Genetic defects commonly observed in infertile males include karyotypic abnormalities, gene copy number variations [CNVs], single gene mutations/polymorphisms and deletions on the long arm of the Y chromosome [Yq microdeletions]. These genetic defects impede the development of the male gonads or urogenital tract during development, cause arrest of germ cell production and/or maturation or produce non-functional spermatozoa...

In the year 1959 two scientific reports on the Klinefelter syndrome and on the Turner syndrome [31, 32], described for the very first time that the human Y chromosome contained at least one sex-determining gene that was responsible for the maleness of the embryo. A large numbers of sex reversed patients were subsequently identified to have deletions in portions of the Yp (XY sex reversal) or had additional portions of the Yp (XX males).

Note that males who cannot produce sperm are still called 'males'. That's because the quality of 'maleness' is not 100% correlated with 'able to produce small gametes' - there are other characteristics involved too. You say these other characteristics are 'secondary' and therefore have no role in determining sex, but this isn't true. There are many genes involved, determining different parts of what we call 'male' and 'female'. Furthermore certain drugs, hormones, diseases or physical changes can cause people to develop some of the characteristics of the opposite sex. It's even possible for a person to be physically one sex and mentally another, with the mental part being on a broad spectrum from strongly male to strongly female.

Scientists like to put things in neat categories to make their job easier. But in some fields - such as infertility - the fuzziness at the edges becomes important. This shouldn't be controversial, and yet this thread exists. Since this is a 'skeptics' forum I have to ask - why? What's so important about it that a 48 page thread can't come to any agreement? The answer is:- it isn't just a desire to confirm a 'strict biological definition'. People have strong idiological reasons for needing it to be one way the other. And why shouldn't they, since there is a lot of controversy about it outside the scientific community. We should acknowledge that and deal with it, not try to co-opt a definition which was not made for that purpose.

 

[smartcooky]

So usually male, sometimes female? How do you categorize them when they produce both large and small gametes - by the proportion of each?

You either haven't been paying attention, or you have jumped into the thread without reading back, therefore I'm not going to waste much time catching you up to what we have been debating.

I will start here, with this karyotype chart
.

Even people with DSD are are still classified male or female. There is NO DSD where this is not the case

That very rare case I was talking about was one that bobdroege7 brought up in post #1846; a rare 46XX/47XXY SRY+ Klinefelter's mosaic karyotype. bobdroege7 claimed this was proof of a third sex. But the paper he linked to said he was male... oops!

Or do they change sex depending on what they are producing at the time? What about those who can't produce either?

See the chart above

You say sex is determined by whether a person 'can produce' ova or sperm.

No, you're cherry picking my simplified language because you have not read back or understood what was said earlier, so let me clarify this yet again by repeating what I have said before.

If a person's body type is organised around the production of small gametes (sperm) they are male.
If a person's body type is organised around the production of large gametes (ova) they are female.

A menopausal woman cannot produce ova, so what is she?

Female of course... what else?

You now appear to be channelling the ridiculous arguments advanced by Steersman, namely that pre-pubescent boys, and men with vasectomies are sexless therefore not males, and pre-pubescent girls, post-menopsal women, pregnant woman and women who have undergone tubal ligations are also sexless therefore not females.

I sincerely hope you are not considering hitching your wagon to his insane train!

Genetics of the human Y chromosome and its association with male infertility

Note that males who cannot produce sperm are still called 'males'. That's because the quality of 'maleness' is not 100% correlated with 'able to produce small gametes' - there are other characteristics involved too. You say these other characteristics are 'secondary' and therefore have no role in determining sex, but this isn't true. There are many genes involved, determining different parts of what we call 'male' and 'female'. Furthermore certain drugs, hormones, diseases or physical changes can cause people to develop some of the characteristics of the opposite sex. It's even possible for a person to be physically one sex and mentally another, with the mental part being on a broad spectrum from strongly male to strongly female.

Scientists like to put things in neat categories to make their job easier. But in some fields - such as infertility - the fuzziness at the edges becomes important. This shouldn't be controversial, and yet this thread exists. Since this is a 'skeptics' forum I have to ask - why? What's so important about it that a 48 page thread can't come to any agreement? The answer is:- it isn't just a desire to confirm a 'strict biological definition'. People have strong idiological reasons for needing it to be one way the other. And why shouldn't they, since there is a lot of controversy about it outside the scientific community. We should acknowledge that and deal with it, not try to co-opt a definition which was not made for that purpose.

The only dog I have in this fight is defending science, facts and truth from those who would try undermine and subvert them for their own ideological and political purposes.

 

[Rolfe]

And nobody is physically one sex and mentally the other, that's preposterous.

 

[Louden Wilde]

So usually male, sometimes female? How do you categorize them when they produce both large and small gametes - by the proportion of each? Or do they change sex depending on what they are producing at the time? What about those who can't produce either?

You say sex is determined by whether a person 'can produce' ova or sperm. A menopausal woman cannot produce ova, so what is she?

Genetics of the human Y chromosome and its association with male infertility

Note that males who cannot produce sperm are still called 'males'. That's because the quality of 'maleness' is not 100% correlated with 'able to produce small gametes' - there are other characteristics involved too. You say these other characteristics are 'secondary' and therefore have no role in determining sex, but this isn't true. There are many genes involved, determining different parts of what we call 'male' and 'female'. Furthermore certain drugs, hormones, diseases or physical changes can cause people to develop some of the characteristics of the opposite sex. It's even possible for a person to be physically one sex and mentally another, with the mental part being on a broad spectrum from strongly male to strongly female.

Scientists like to put things in neat categories to make their job easier. But in some fields - such as infertility - the fuzziness at the edges becomes important. This shouldn't be controversial, and yet this thread exists. Since this is a 'skeptics' forum I have to ask - why? What's so important about it that a 48 page thread can't come to any agreement? The answer is:- it isn't just a desire to confirm a 'strict biological definition'. People have strong idiological reasons for needing it to be one way the other. And why shouldn't they, since there is a lot of controversy about it outside the scientific community. We should acknowledge that and deal with it, not try to co-opt a definition which was not made for that purpose.

Biologists have agreed on a definition (for decades) - as I noted earlier in the thread. I agree the current "debate" seems to be ideologically driven - but as far as I can tell that seems to be entirely from folks who wish sex were a spectrum &/or changeable.

ETA it's certainly true people like to put things in boxes, & that can lead to oversimplification. However sex is a pretty clear binary - there's no evidence in mammals of any group of organisms being able to reproduce without producing either oocytes or sperm.