Split Thread Diversity Equity and Inclusion and merit in employment etc

The logic required to get from what I said to what you said falls apart when subjected to any actual scrutiny. That DEI, specifically, is rooted in avoiding legal trouble in no way negates its potential to improve business performance. There's nuance that can be invoked there about what conditions lead to benefits and which do not, of course, but you've not come anywhere close to that level of discussion.
Oh, pfft. How does it do that? Why doesn't that apply to LG or Samsung or TSMC? Skin color or sexual proclivity does not give a person some sorta magic knowledge or skill. A company can shed that crap and be just fine.

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Oh, pfft. How does it do that? Why doesn't that apply to LG or Samsung or TSMC? Skin color or sexual proclivity does not give a person some sorta magic knowledge or skill. A company can shed that crap and be just fine.

To repeat - There's nuance that can be invoked there about what conditions lead to benefits and which do not, of course, but you've not come anywhere close to that level of discussion.

Also, your picture argument may not quite say what you wish it did. Twitter was a company on an upward trend for size and profitability. It was just fine. X is circling the drain, with its only hope being that Musk will personally prop it up. It's not even close to fine.
 
To repeat - There's nuance that can be invoked there about what conditions lead to benefits and which do not, of course, but you've not come anywhere close to that level of discussion.

Also, your picture argument may not quite say what you wish it did. Twitter was a company on an upward trend for size and profitability. It was just fine. X is circling the drain, with its only hope being that Musk will personally prop it up. It's not even close to fine.
You've still not answered how DEI improves business performance. You've still not answered why it doesn't apply to homogenous billion-dollar companies. And X is doing just fine. Did you miss the last election?
 
When the forces attacking DEI are also going after more traditional anti-discrimination using such as cover and are actively working to stir up resentment and trouble
Ah yes. Those nebulous unspecified forces. Somehow I'm responsible for them.

Yeah, no. I don't accept your attempt at guilt by association. I don't have to answer for anyone else.
When DEI is effectively implemented as just a PR relabeling of anti-discrimination, as seems to have been shown that it usually is in practice, there's no effective distinction.
You haven't shown that at all.
Here, though, a simple observation that you seem to have missed. Any effort to actually rectify the damage done by discrimination will, in fact, require discrimination.
First off, no, that's simply not true. We have plenty of counter-examples (blind auditions in orchestras being just one). Second, you're now basically admitting what you've spent so long denying: that DEI is in favor of racial discrimination. What's more, you are in favor of racial discrimination.
Complaining that something encourages what it claims is "the right kind of discrimination" isn't really much of a real complaint in the first place and ends up as little other than a really lame gotcha attempt.
You are in favor of racial discrimination. You're correct that this isn't much of a gatcha, in the sense that everyone knows it already. The real problem is that you think that there is a right kind of racial discrimination.
 
You've still not answered how DEI improves business performance. You've still not answered why it doesn't apply to homogenous billion-dollar companies. And X is doing just fine. Did you miss the last election?

Yup, you've still got nothing and have no interest in addressing the various points made previously that you're pretending don't exist. This is why I said that you're not even close to that level of discussion.

Ah yes. Those nebulous unspecified forces. Somehow I'm responsible for them.

Yeah, no. I don't accept your attempt at guilt by association. I don't have to answer for anyone else.

You don't want to be labelled as responsible for them? An interesting response. It's also nothing more than another attempt to dodge.

You haven't shown that at all.

Such was done earlier in the thread, even by those going after DEI. I feel no need to repeat that discussion.

First off, no, that's simply not true. We have plenty of counter-examples (blind auditions in orchestras being just one).

Blind auditions wasn't rectifying the damage. It was an effort to fix things from then onwards, sure, and prevent more, but there's a difference.

Second, you're now basically admitting what you've spent so long denying: that DEI is in favor of racial discrimination. What's more, you are in favor of racial discrimination.

You are in favor of racial discrimination. You're correct that this isn't much of a gatcha, in the sense that everyone knows it already. The real problem is that you think that there is a right kind of racial discrimination.

Again, your accusation is nothing more than a lame gotcha attempt. That you're trying to double down on it makes it no less lame.
 
Yup, you've still got nothing and have no interest in addressing the various points made previously that you're pretending don't exist. This is why I said that you're not even close to that level of discussion.
So you can't. Just admit it. It's okay. Though if you can show any replication of the supposed "DEI is good for business" consulting reports, I could change my view.
 
DEI is woo.

McKinsey’s Diversity Matters/ Delivers/Wins Results Revisited

In conclusion, our results indicate that despite the imprimatur often given to McKinsey’s 2015, 2018, 2020, and 2023 studies, McKinsey’s studies neither conceptually (in terms of the correct direction of causality) nor empirically (in terms of their set of large US public firms) support the argument that large US public firms can expect on average to deliver improved financial performance if they increase the racial/ethnic diversity of their executives.
 
So you can't. Just admit it. It's okay. Though if you can show any replication of the supposed "DEI is good for business" consulting reports, I could change my view.
You've shown little reason to believe that you even understand what said "supposed "DEI is good for business" consulting reports" say in the first place, though? Nor have you actually refuted any of the previous points raise on the subject.
 
Blind auditions wasn't rectifying the damage.
What damage? You're begging the question that participation not matching the population indicates damage, and that's just stupid.
Again, your accusation is nothing more than a lame gotcha attempt. That you're trying to double down on it makes it no less lame.
Call it whatever you want, but you're the one in favor of racial discrimination, not me. Hell, you aren't even denying it.
 
What damage? You're begging the question that participation not matching the population indicates damage, and that's just stupid.

Hardly. For example, when blind auditions were implemented, the rate of women being hired rose significantly. The damage would have much more to do with how women were fairly certainly passed over, causing loss to both the women and the quality of the orchestra.

Call it whatever you want, but you're the one in favor of racial discrimination, not me. Hell, you aren't even denying it.
Yeah, I'm calling your attempted argument inane, because, yet again, you're too busy trying to manufacture some moral ground to stand on after having ignored and dodged relevant stuff.

You're just continuing to show how right I was when I said -
That might be more hard hitting as a point if I hadn't raised and addressed that right after what you quoted. That you would try to raise that as if I hadn't done so does your cause no favor.
You've still ignored how I had raised and addressed such, which continues to make your accusations all the more laughable. You continue to do your cause no favors.
 
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Hardly. For example, when blind auditions were implemented, the rate of women being hired rose significantly. The damage would have much more to do with how women were fairly certainly passed over, causing loss to both the women and the quality of the orchestra.
Except blind auditions DID fix that damage. So what damage that they didn’t fix are you even talking about?
 
Except blind auditions DID fix that damage. So what damage that they didn’t fix are you even talking about?
Yeah, at this point, you're just convincing me not to bother with you any more, given the nature of your choices of argument. I'm reminded again of how you've repeated denied that there's any possible valid reason for concern when it comes to Trump and Russia because "Drill, baby, drill."

You have the capability to comprehend the things said and address them coherently, but when you're too busy ignoring relevant things, dodging, and making dubious accusations, you're certainly not using such.
 
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Yeah, at this point, you're just convincing me not to bother with you any more, given the nature of your choices of argument.
What the hell are you even talking about? You chose to claim that blind auditions didn't fix the damage from discrimination, not me. But the only form of damage you've pointed out (qualified women being excluded, and orchestras being deprived of their talents) are exactly the damage that they do fix.
 
What the hell are you even talking about? You chose to claim that blind auditions didn't fix the damage from discrimination, not me. But the only form of damage you've pointed out (qualified women being excluded, and orchestras being deprived of their talents) are exactly the damage that they do fix.
When you're too busy indulging in your preconceptions about what you wish was said and doing so repeatedly, it can rather interfere with understanding what was said. It rather feels like most of this conversation is driven by you doing such and I've been growing tired of such.
 
It can be. Especially if it's actually just an excuse to try to get away with benefiting from wrongs committed without receiving any unpleasant consequences.

There's enough overlap in some acts of discrimination, either way, that whining about how something isn't technically racist ends up as a remarkably hollow argument.

With those things said, I'm going to quote the beginning of that article to give some of the context that you're avoiding in your argument.
My "argument" is that those who defend DEI and at the same time say it's colorblind are contradicting themselves. As for the context I'm avoiding here's the paragraph again:

According to psychologists, an important step in rooting out systemic racism is to first acknowledge it, rather than deny or minimize its existence. A study published in the Journal of Counseling Psychology and led by Jacqueline Yi, a clinical-community psychology doctoral student at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, looked at over 80 previous studies in which different types of color-blind ideology were found to increase anti-Black perspectives and give a pass to racist behaviors and attitudes. More specifically, power evasion (the denial of racism) led to these negative outcomes, and color evasion (ignoring race) did not necessarily do so.
Do you see the buried assumption in that first sentence? That systemic racism is real and that it exists. Now obviously systemic racism has existed in this country--Jim Crow, segregation, poll taxes, red-lining, etc. But that sort of overt, de jure racism is not what they mean. Ibrahim X. Kendi, the star of the movement, has said that any disparity in outcomes between Whites and Blacks is evidence of systemic racism. I find that difficult to believe, mainly because we can see that there is also a disparity in outcomes between Asians and Whites. Consider the current freshman class at Harvard:

Of students who identified their race, 14 percent identified as African American or Black, a decrease from 18 percent in Class of 2027 data. Thirty-seven percent of students identified as Asian American, representing no change from the year prior. Sixteen percent of students identified as Hispanic or Latino, up from 14 percent the previous year. One percent of students identified as Native American, a decrease of 1 percent from the previous year. Fewer than 1 percent identified as Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander, reflecting no change.
Note that they felt no need to mention what percentage of the class identified as White or Caucasian. If we assume they made up the remainder, that would mean that roughly 32% of the class is White. Quite obviously Whites are under-represented compared to American society in general and Asians are wildly over-represented. Systemic racism in favor of Asians and against Whites? Or the more likely reason, which is that Asians work hard and (may) have higher IQs in general than Whites.
 

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