Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

d4m10n said:
See post #1780.
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That post is a copout, and not actually responsive to the discussion.
d4m10n said:
As I said there, men don't "know what those spaces are uniquely good for" and are thus underinformed when they make policy.
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The law says nothing about how informed voters need to be. That has never been a requirement. So again, what standard are you trying to apply here? Is it the law? Or is it something else? You jump back and forth with no consistency.
 
As reported by the BBC...

The couple who run PinkNews, the world's largest LGBT news website, have been accused by staff of multiple incidents of sexual misconduct.

Several former staff members told the BBC they saw Anthony James, a director at the UK-based company and husband of its founder, kissing and touching a junior colleague who they say appeared too drunk to consent.

And more than 30 current and former members of staff said a culture of heavy drinking led to instances when founder Benjamin Cohen and his husband behaved inappropriately towards younger male employees.

Representatives for Mr Cohen and Dr James told the BBC they were not able to provide a statement at this time, but that their position is that the allegations are false.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy9q4zvwldvo
 
Matthew Best said:
I'm pretty sure I agree with you, but you seem to have set aside the feelings of the women who say he is welcome.
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Absolutely, and for good reason: Consent is not transferable. Pixel cannot consent on my behalf to allow a male to see me naked in the showers; I cannot consent on Pixel's behalf to allow a male to expose themself to Pixel in the sauna.
 
That was what seemed to bring my pro-trans friend up short when I pointed it out. I'd had half an hour of "how many would it be anyway" when I said I didn't think males should be sent to women's prisons,* and all about how she didn't mind if there were males in any women's toilets she was in. I said (trying not to have a row about it), "I don't think women who are OK about this have the right to surrender women's single-sex spaces on behalf of the women who aren't." Her face completely changed and she seemed to see the point, and dropped the subject.

I thought of a lot more that might have been more persuasive, such as the women who aren't OK about it including Moslem women who have to remove their hijab to perform the ritual wash before prayer, and need a male-free space to do that in, and orthodox Jewish women (not sure about the exact theology of that) and women who have been traumatised by a man and have a panic reaction to discovering a man in a space they believe to be female-only, but when she didn't pursue the point I left it alone for the sake of peace.

*Adam "Isla" Bryson happened about two weeks later.
 
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Ziggurat said:
So again, what standard are you trying to apply here? Is it the law? Or is it something else?
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Someone brought up rights, I was pointing out how rights actually exist. Personally I try to avoid rights-based arguments since they mostly come down to the latest high court picks.
 
I'm getting confused - which I'm starting to suspect is your aim. So you suggest that there should be a vote which only women should vote in? This does not seem like a very practical or serious suggestion.
 
d4m10n said:
Someone brought up rights, I was pointing out how rights actually exist.
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And you did so in a manner at odds with your own prior assertions about women and the spaces that allegedly belong to them. Nothing in this response even touches on the inconsistency in your position that I pointed out.
 
Matthew Best said:
So you suggest that there should be a vote which only women should vote in? This does not seem like a very practical or serious suggestion.
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It can be serious without being practical. I certainly do not expect the party of unabashedly retrograde masculinity to give up their ability to tell women what to do with themselves.
 
Ziggurat said:
And you did so in a manner at odds with your own prior assertions about women and the spaces that allegedly belong to them.
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Allegedly? I don't think there is actually much disagreement on this point, only on what counts as womanhood.
 
You're still dancing around the problem. Are you ever going to address it, or just forever move the goalpost and change the subject?
 
d4m10n said:
It can be serious without being practical. I certainly do not expect the party of unabashedly retrograde masculinity to give up their ability to tell women what to do with themselves.
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The amusing part of this to me is that the people these men are actually telling what to do with themselves aren't the women, but other men.
 
d4m10n said:
Women, don't you dare invite transwomen into your spaces! Trust us men on this.
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Consent doesn't transfer. And regardless of any invitation, it's still men telling other men to not invade women's spaces. Which is what you previously did to me, in case you forgot.

You have no consistency.
 
Ziggurat said:
And regardless of any invitation, it's still men telling other men to not invade women's spaces.
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It's men telling women how to dispose of their own spaces.

Matthew Best said:
But it's women who are the ones complaining?
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Congresswomen are much, much less likely to complain than Congressmen, but I say we let them each decide about their own spaces rather than trying to come up with a one-size-fits-all rule which ignores the differences between males and females.
 
d4m10n said:
It's men telling women how to dispose of their own spaces.
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You’re still begging the question that it’s their space to begin with, and then ignoring the logic of why it is. Nor have you touched even once on the problem that consent isn’t transferable.

You keep framing it this way because your position cannot survive examination from any other perspective.
 
Ziggurat said:
You’re still begging the question that it’s their space to begin with, and then ignoring the logic of why it is.
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We already covered that upthread; the people for whom the space was designed and designated are a specific sex class.
Ziggurat said:
Nor have you touched even once on the problem that consent isn’t transferable.
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You are bringing consent into this as if we're talking about individual bodily integrity rather than the disposition of collectively owned property.
 
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