Merged Strict biological definitions of male/female

bobdroege7 said:
guess what, zero is a countable number.
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Guess what?
Not having a sperm count for females is not the same as having a zero sperm count.
Not having an egg count for males is not the same as having a zero egg count.

When you are talking about spectra and bimodality, you must use terms properly.
EC correctly uses the term "null" to describe a female sperm count.

Zero has definite value, and therefore, has a place on any chart, distribution, spectrum.
Null has no value, and therefore, cannot be plotted on any of the above.
 
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bobdroege7 said:
So what sex is this ovulating boy?

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Spontaneous ovulation in a true hermaphrodite with normal male phenotype and a rare 46,XX/47,XXY Klinefelter's mosaic karyotype - PubMed

The importance of full histological, cytogenetic and molecular investigation and of interdisciplinary approach in every single patient with sex differentiation disorders is highlighted by this rare case of spontaneous ovulation in a true hermaphrodite with normal male external genitalia and...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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Tell you what - people with mosaicism or chimerism of the reproductive tract get to be whatever the heck they want to call themselves. Do you feel like you've won the internet now?
 
He's male, as evidenced by the word "boy". The presence of anomalous female tissue doesn't produce a third sex.
 
bobdroege7 said:
So what sex is this ovulating boy?

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Spontaneous ovulation in a true hermaphrodite with normal male phenotype and a rare 46,XX/47,XXY Klinefelter's mosaic karyotype - PubMed

The importance of full histological, cytogenetic and molecular investigation and of interdisciplinary approach in every single patient with sex differentiation disorders is highlighted by this rare case of spontaneous ovulation in a true hermaphrodite with normal male external genitalia and...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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Rolfe said:
He's male, as evidenced by the word "boy". The presence of anomalous female tissue doesn't produce a third sex.
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Oh, the fading excitement as bobdroege7 thinks he's found his "gotcha" moment, only for his hopes to be dashed by those stubborn facts

This boy is a male with Kleinfelter Syndrome Mosaicism

Klinefelter Syndrome Mosaicism 46,XX/47,XXY: A New Case and Literature Review - PMC

Most cases of Klinefelter syndrome (KS) have 47,XXY karyotype. We reported the first case of 46,XX/47,XXY KS whose genital ambiguity was detected prenatally with postnatal confirmation of the mosaicism and ovotesticular disorder of sex development ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Klinefelter syndrome (KS), 47,XXY, is a common sex chromosome aneuploidy with an approximate prevalence of 1 in 660 live born males."​
- He still does not produce a third type of gamete that is neither sperm nor eggs
- Any gametes he does produce (if viable) will fulfil the male role in reproduction

Therefore, no third sex. Sorry to disappoint bobdroege7 but your "gotcha" is a nothongburger that has already been addressed multiple times earlier in this thread
 
bobdroege7 said:
you missed the point.

Still there is no need for a third sex for sex to be non-binary.
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Can you offer a rebuttal to this (re-phrased from earlier): It's not sex itself that is on a spectrum, but individual's sex characteristics that are on a spectrum.
 
bobdroege7 said:
you missed the point.​

Still there is no need for a third sex for sex to be non-binary.
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Wrong. Completely and utterly wrong!

binary​
/ˈbʌɪn(ə)ri/​
​
1. relating to, composed of, or involving two things.​
2. relating to, using, or denoting a system of numerical that has 2 rather than 10 as a base.​

When biologists say that “sex is binary,” they mean something straightforward: there are only two sexes. This statement is true because an individual’s sex is defined by the type of gamete (sperm or ova) their primary reproductive organs are organized, through development, to produce. Males have primary reproductive organs organized around the production of sperm
Females have primary reproductive organs organized around the production of ova.
Because there is no third gamete type, there are only two sexes that a person can be. Sex is therefore binary.

These are facts that cannot be wished away with a wave of the hand. There absolutely MUST be a third sex for sex to be non binary. People with DSDs are not a third sex, they are able to be classified as male or female.

There is not a single example anywhere in science of sometihng that ONLY exists in two states being non-binary (and if you are thinking that
quantum superposition might be a rebuttal... no it isn't!).
 
bobdroege7 said:
Still there is no need for a third sex for sex to be non-binary.
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smartcooky said:
There is not a single example anywhere in science of something that ONLY exists in two states being non-binary
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CatImpatient.gif


Still waiting....
 
bobdroege7 said:
you missed the point.

Still there is no need for a third sex for sex to be non-binary.
Click to expand...
Let's go back to some basics, and a core understanding of how evolution works. Evolution doesn't have a plan, there's no guidance, there's no decision maker - it's a completely passive process, a giant pachinko machine. And way back in the before-fore times, hundreds of millions of years ago... our very most distant ancestors ended up mixing genetic information from multiple individuals in order to create the next generation. This is in contrast to cloning (single celled organisms that undergo binary fission) or replication (viruses that assemble copies of themselves using a materials stolen from a different organism completely).

This mixing of materials from multiple individuals is reproduction. Sexual reproduction doesn't necessarily imply that the individual specimens are busting out Barry White for some sexy-time shenanigans, it really just means that 1) the reproduction occurs using different sized genetic packages, that 2) take on different burdens in the reproductive process. Sex has to do with those genetic packages, not with the act of intercourse. This is an important technicality, because it prevents a whole pile of confusion down the road. For example... many plants have sexes, but they don't have *sex*. Stamens aren't actually inserted into pistils, after all.

Those genetic packages are called gametes, and in sexually reproductive species, they evolved to have two distinct types - and ONLY two types. There are large packages, which carry a lot of nutrients and move slowly. Those large packages have traded off using the nutrients to fuel their own movement, and instead, they set those nutrients aside to feed the embryo and give the next generation what it needs to develop. There are also small packages, which have evolved a different approach - they have only a small amount of nutrients, and they burn those nutrients as fuel so that they can move more. The large packages are called "eggs" or "ova". The small packages are called "sperm".

It just so happens that the combination of "large target" combine with "lots of birdshot all at once" creates a near optimum for the likelihood of fertilization. Because math is the only true god.

Anyway... these two different genetic packages, two distinct gametes, evolved. And hand in hand with them each species developed the anatomical structures needed to produce those gametes, and to deliver those gametes, and to nurture the fertilized gametes. Birds, fish, and most reptiles produce self-contained eggs that are fertilized and laid outside the body. Many plants produce seeds. Mammals gestate the fetus inside the mother's body.

So at the end of the day, there is a clear evolutionary function that distinguishes one sex from the other. Those functions can be identified based on the type of structures that the individual grew.

Now let's go back to your Klinefelter male.

Does your Klinefelter male have a different kind of gamete than the two known as egg and sperm? Does your Klinefelter male have anatomical structures that have evolved to support this completely different kind of gamete?
 
Emily's Cat said:
Let's go back to some basics, and a core understanding of how evolution works. Evolution doesn't have a plan, there's no guidance, there's no decision maker - it's a completely passive process, a giant pachinko machine. And way back in the before-fore times, hundreds of millions of years ago... our very most distant ancestors ended up mixing genetic information from multiple individuals in order to create the next generation. This is in contrast to cloning (single celled organisms that undergo binary fission) or replication (viruses that assemble copies of themselves using a materials stolen from a different organism completely).

This mixing of materials from multiple individuals is reproduction. Sexual reproduction doesn't necessarily imply that the individual specimens are busting out Barry White for some sexy-time shenanigans, it really just means that 1) the reproduction occurs using different sized genetic packages, that 2) take on different burdens in the reproductive process. Sex has to do with those genetic packages, not with the act of intercourse. This is an important technicality, because it prevents a whole pile of confusion down the road. For example... many plants have sexes, but they don't have *sex*. Stamens aren't actually inserted into pistils, after all.

Those genetic packages are called gametes, and in sexually reproductive species, they evolved to have two distinct types - and ONLY two types. There are large packages, which carry a lot of nutrients and move slowly. Those large packages have traded off using the nutrients to fuel their own movement, and instead, they set those nutrients aside to feed the embryo and give the next generation what it needs to develop. There are also small packages, which have evolved a different approach - they have only a small amount of nutrients, and they burn those nutrients as fuel so that they can move more. The large packages are called "eggs" or "ova". The small packages are called "sperm".

It just so happens that the combination of "large target" combine with "lots of birdshot all at once" creates a near optimum for the likelihood of fertilization. Because math is the only true god.

Anyway... these two different genetic packages, two distinct gametes, evolved. And hand in hand with them each species developed the anatomical structures needed to produce those gametes, and to deliver those gametes, and to nurture the fertilized gametes. Birds, fish, and most reptiles produce self-contained eggs that are fertilized and laid outside the body. Many plants produce seeds. Mammals gestate the fetus inside the mother's body.

So at the end of the day, there is a clear evolutionary function that distinguishes one sex from the other. Those functions can be identified based on the type of structures that the individual grew.

Now let's go back to your Klinefelter male.

Does your Klinefelter male have a different kind of gamete than the two known as egg and sperm? Does your Klinefelter male have anatomical structures that have evolved to support this completely different kind of gamete?
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Spare me the biology lesson, I have had college level Biology and Biochemistry.

So not a completely different gamete, but a single individual that produces both types of gametes.

And math does not exist in the real world, it's its own separate entity, and discoverable by any sentient species.

I believe in the holy trinity, the strong force, the electroweak force, and gravity. Those are the three Gods.
 
Trausti said:
Can you give an example of a human born that was not the product of the sexual binary?
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If you mean a human that was not produced from the union of a sperm and an egg, then yes.

And it's a normal natural thing that happens sometimes, no doctors or Frankensteins needed.

But you should look for that yourself, or you can pay me 50 bucks and I will tell you.
 
smartcooky said:
These are facts that cannot be wished away with a wave of the hand. There absolutely MUST be a third sex for sex to be non binary. People with DSDs are not a third sex, they are able to be classified as male or female.
Click to expand...

The title of the thread is strict biological definitions of male and female.

Yes, some people can classify them as either of two sexes, I find that arbitrary and forced.

Others are free to classify them differently.

You see my point, you are not using a strict biological definition.

Do you not understand strict or is biological the term giving you fits?
 
bobdroege7 said:
Spare me the biology lesson, I have had college level Biology and Biochemistry.
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And yet here you are arguing that sex is not binary, but exists on a spectrum.
bobdroege7 said:
So not a completely different gamete, but a single individual that produces both types of gametes.
Click to expand...
I asked a specific question: Does your Klinefelter male have a different kind of gamete than the two known as egg and sperm? Does your Klinefelter male have anatomical structures that have evolved to support this completely different kind of gamete?

For sex to be non-binary, there MUST exist at least one gamete that is NOT an egg or a sperm. It must be either an in-between gamete (a spergg) or it must be an entirely new type of gamete. Hand-in-hand with that, there MUST exist a reproductive anatomy that has evolved specifically to produce this gamete.
 
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